142255 Thu May 09 10:35:56 -0700 2002 62 12 Boston Area 0 760625 Suggestions for bagels (bulk, not restaurant) in Boston and points west. Bonus points for quality sesame bagels. Dunkin Donuts suggestions will be summarily dismissed. Thu May 09 10:35:56 -0700 2002 0 AlanH 1 760627 Forgot to mention, already know of Kupel's and I think they're good but not THAT good, and I read the thread from November. Any new info would be helpful. Thu May 09 10:38:54 -0700 2002 760625 0 AlanH 2 760631 There is the bagel factory in Chelsea...I forgot the name of it...they sell wholesale and have a retail counter. Hope this helps. Thu May 09 11:02:44 -0700 2002 760627 0 BLT 3 760654 It's Katz's bagels. Thu May 09 12:52:54 -0700 2002 760631 0 chuck s 1 760628 There was a thread on 11/15/01 with the subject line Bagels in Boston? I don't know how to insert the link so I would just suggest scrolling down to that date. Thu May 09 10:39:13 -0700 2002 760625 0 cheesecake 2 760630 Just a quick hint for the future. To insert a link, just copy the address line, or URL, or location, of the post you'd like to link to, then paste it into the URL square below..Where it calls for a title, you can call it whatever you like, and clicking on it will link right to the desired post. Thu May 09 10:54:41 -0700 2002 760628 0 galleygirl 3 760653 You're so helpful. Thu May 09 12:51:55 -0700 2002 760630 0 chuck s 3 760676 Nawwww, just wannah make sure I don't miss anything good that someone wants to link to! :) Thu May 09 14:28:48 -0700 2002 760630 0 galleygirl 1 760638 Try Cafe Fresh Bagel in Needham and Dedham...voted Best of Boston I believe the past two years...and they have excellent sesame bagels. They are located on Highland Ave in Needham. Thu May 09 11:37:07 -0700 2002 760625 0 paul 2 760643 Second this suggestion. They're specially good toasted. Thu May 09 11:57:38 -0700 2002 760638 0 m 1 760646 Rosenfelds in Newton Center (1280 Centre St, Newton, MA 617-527-8080). Also has OK (but not definitively great) bialys on Saturdays. Thu May 09 12:04:28 -0700 2002 760625 0 Karl S. 1 760648 The best bagels I've had in the greater Boston area are in downtown Newburyport: Abraham's Bagels at 11 Liberty Street. They have the most AMAZING french toast bagels, which are egg bagels swirled with a little maple syrup and cinnamon chips. YUM! They freeze well if you thaw them then reheat in the oven. Thu May 09 12:15:08 -0700 2002 760625 0 Karen 2 760703 That may be food, but it is NOT a bagel. Thu May 09 21:39:39 -0700 2002 760648 0 ScratchBaker 2 760705 I refer to them, and their ilk,as "bagel-shaped baked goods"...I mean, I even have a weak spot for the Au Bon Pain "Asiago Cheese Bagel", but it's not a BAGEL!!! And I also feel it's not a bagel if it has to be toasted to be good... Thu May 09 21:51:42 -0700 2002 760648 0 galleygirl 3 760717 Oh my god, asiago cheese "bagels" are one of my favorite things. Fri May 10 08:21:47 -0700 2002 760705 0 Joanie 4 760720 Yes, it's a baker's concept for decadence run amok.. Of course, the basic idea of bagels is NOT decadence in the humble starch itself, but it the toppings that one uses it as a vehicle for... That said, I also had a fondness for the "pizza bagels" that Kupel's used to do before they became Pareve..... Fri May 10 09:31:22 -0700 2002 760717 0 galleygirl 5 760733 Wow, that takes me back. When I first moved to Boston those Kupels "pizza bagels" were such a big treat! They were the weirdest interpretation of a pizza bagel -- more like a bialy (sorta) with a gob of tomato paste and some kind of pot cheese in the middle. I LOVED them. I haven't been in there so long, I hadn't realized they didn't have them anymore. RE the bagel/fake bagel controversy, I'm a NY transplant, so I like to think of myself as a bagel purist/maven, but I have been known to buy and even enjoy a Triple Chocolate Chip "bagel" from Finagle. ANd their jalapeno cheddar cheese are great with tuna salad. The heresy!!! RE actual good bagels: For those who pine for H&H bagels, Zathmary's (specialty food shop) in Brookline gets dough from H&H and boils / bakes it themselves. The taste is about right, the shape and texture not quite up to the standard of the original, but they're pretty good. A little too sweet in my opinion, just like the ones at H&H itself. Fri May 10 12:11:07 -0700 2002 760720 0 MichaelB 6 760735 Oh, another downfall of mine, the choc. chip "bagel". How many calories do you think those have anyway? On another note, the choc. bread at Boston Bread in Coolidge Corner and their humungous choc. chip cookies are quite good too. Fri May 10 12:30:00 -0700 2002 760733 0 Joanie 7 760737 If they ever have their giant biscotti when you're there, snag one...A lovely, dense, not-too-sweet day-long pacifier! Fri May 10 12:44:38 -0700 2002 760735 0 galleygirl 6 760736 I, also, have a weakness for the Jalepeno-Cheddar cheese bagel-like device from Finagle, likewise their Garden Vegetable....As far as the triple CC, french toast, blueberyy(!), ad nauseum, I refer to them, with appropriate disdain, as "goyische bagels" :) I tried the H&H transplants from Zarthmary's, but their freshness control seems to be erratic. I tried twice, buying them from the Bakery section, not the "Day-Olds", and they were so stale I can't comment on taste, flavor, or quality. Fri May 10 12:42:41 -0700 2002 760733 0 galleygirl 7 760741 Oh, absolutely. But I gotta say, jalapeno-cheddar cheese = pretty goyische! ;) I seem to remember when even cinnamon-raisin bagels were extremely suspect. (sveet? you vant sveet begel??) Plain, poppy, sesame, salt, and onion, the original five (in my book). All the others just products of the decline of civilization! pretty tasty, though... Blueberry bagels are still beyond the pale, though. Lines must be drawn, standards maintained!!! Fri May 10 13:16:10 -0700 2002 760736 0 MichaelB 8 760742 Yeah, the hobgoblin of inconsistancy has caught me again! I STILL think raisin-cinnamon are suspect, and when I first saw a blueberry one, during a "galley-replenishing" at Stonington Harbor, in Maine, I had to bring the true Yiddishkeit wisdom of bagel DOC to my comapanions, who thought we has stumbled onto _real_ bagels.... Fri May 10 13:23:41 -0700 2002 760741 0 galleygirl 8 760748 As much as I can eat all those other flavors, you're right about something being just plain wrong with blueberry. It doesn't make sense does it? Fri May 10 14:16:30 -0700 2002 760741 0 Joanie 3 760732 Just to clarify, Abraham's bagels don't have to be toasted unless they've been frozen first. They are amazing right when you buy them. Also, while I agree that a french toast bagel is nontraditional, I don't think it disqualifies it as a bagel. But regardless of where one comes down on this point, Abraham's traditional flavors of plain, sesame, onion, etc. are excellent too. Fri May 10 12:08:30 -0700 2002 760705 0 karen 4 760746 Sorry, can't agree. As a NJ guy who grew up going to the Paterson bagel factory every Sunday in the late fifties, I think I can take a snob attitude toward bagels. They should be made ONLY in the traditional Jewish method and in a very few flavor: plain, poppy, sesame, and onion. Even salt, which I love, is not authentic. Forget about cinnamon raisin or sourdough. These are flavored breads in the shape of donuts. French toast, assiago chesse, etc? That's like making pizza out of russian dressing and whipped cream. Most bagels you get today are merely shadows of the greatness of the Sixies vintage gems in NY. Even H&H has veered from the true form. If you go to Brooklyn or the Lower East side, you can still find the real deal. Fri May 10 14:00:45 -0700 2002 760732 0 hank 5 760749 Interesting points, but what about egg or garlic bagels? Are these not authentic? I would argue yes. Perhaps they are not as "traditional", but I don't see how you can say they are not authentic. Heck, you could say anything but plain isn't authentic if you want to use that logic. You think the first guy who made a bagel poured sesame seeds all over it? I doubt it. And why the NY thing again. I've had great bagels in lots of places-- Montreal and Cleveland for example. Maybe you guys just shouldn't eat when you're outside of "The City". Fri May 10 14:19:10 -0700 2002 760746 0 Alan H 6 760753 Try the bagels from Katz's in Chelsea...I think there as close to the real deal as they get. Boiled, crunchy on the outside and chewy on the inside. Fri May 10 14:35:05 -0700 2002 760749 0 Bagelman 6 760757 I see your points, but I guess I am putting it in context of what was prevalent back when only Jews ate bagels and they were considered some strange substance by others. Remember, the US at large didn't really become hip to bagels until the Seventies. Hey, how many non-Jews outside of NY have even heard of a bialy? BTW, authentic doesn't mean good, per se. Hey, once in a while I like Designer pizza, but it is far from authentic. H&H is considered the paradigm of bagels. But they are twice the size of what they used to be. Things evolve and tastes change. But if we could find a bagel from 40 years ago, you'd see what I mean. Fri May 10 14:59:17 -0700 2002 760749 0 hank 7 760761 Hmm, I see your tendency here is to label "standards" in context to your life, and assuming it to be true of all. For example "H&H is considered the paradigm of bagels" which may be true for some but certainly is not a universal truth. Likewise, I had plenty of great bagels in the 70's, and they included egg, garlic, marble, and salt, which you don't define as authentic, so I am afraid I can't buy into your "authentic" argument. Again, we are getting back to a traditional vs. authentic debate, which has been well-covered on these boards in the past. One more pint, and nothing personal, but you NY guys really get my dander up. There are have always been bagels, and Jews, and non-Jews who ate bagels, outside of NYC. Your world may be centered in NY, but for most of the rest of us NY is just another city. Go Red Sox! Fri May 10 15:16:27 -0700 2002 760757 0 Alan H 8 760764 Hey, slow down here. 1) I do not consider H&H the paradigm. It has become the de facto one. 2) I am not refering to a standard. I am refering to what is the traditional Post War Jewish bagel. You have ideas of what traditional pizza, clam chowder, creme brulee, or whatever might be. Is chocolate creme brulee traditional? No Way. Is it authentic? No way. Is it good? Sure! But an Escoffier chef would never call it creme brulee. 3)Your dander is up about NY. Bostianians have a real thing about NY. New Yorkers don't have a thing about Boston. The truth is (and every food critic, travel writer, chef, foodie, etc will readidly state it) is that NY is simply the culinary capital of the US. Period. End of story. A 4 star in MA is maybe a 2 star in NY. Find me anyplace in Boston that comes close to LÉsspinasse, Boulez, Bernadin, Jean Georges or 100 other places. The only city that comes close is LA. That doesn't mean NY is inherently a better place. It just has far better food and a better baseball team than Boston. Fri May 10 15:57:08 -0700 2002 760761 0 hank 9 760765 ...like I said before... And I think a lot of people in SF and other places would take exception to your comments too. Perhaps if you looked back at your earlier post you'll see why I find your remarks to be so egocentric. On one hand you claim a place is the paradigm, then you claim it isn't, but claim it is "de facto" which is really just saying it is. make up your mind. Fri May 10 16:07:51 -0700 2002 760764 0 Alan H 8 760781 FWIW, I was eating egg, garlic, and marble bagels in the 60's, at Eagerman's in Natick. Fri May 10 22:30:08 -0700 2002 760761 0 ironmom 3 760883 "And I also feel it's not a bagel if it has to be toasted to be good..." OK, so I'm NOT the only one who gets really strange looks from counterpeople when I go "No! No! Don't toast it!" Toasting has become the default, even in places where the bagels are fine, fresh and fabulous. That and the pathetic, transparent swipe of cream cheese they put on them. What do they think the stuff is, butter? Tue May 14 17:10:10 -0700 2002 760705 0 C. Fox 4 760884 It's probably because so many of us have been conditioned, by eating frozen or otherwise not-fresh bagels that must be toasted by default....Some people have come to believe that that's how it's _supposed_ to be... (qualifying admission--My credibility as a Jew has been questioned because I eat bagels without creamcheese...I actually like them with lox and tomato slices, capers if you've got'em....) Tue May 14 17:18:59 -0700 2002 760883 0 galleygirl 4 760888 I always get untoasted too but feel like they glop on too much cream cheese. I hate when I forget a knife to smooth it out and remove half of it. Wed May 15 08:17:16 -0700 2002 760883 0 Joanie 2 760898 Danvers boy here, living in Brooklyn. I have politely asked the natives of my new homeland to rein in on such language as, "Manny's in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn serves a better clam chowder than anything you'll find on Cape Cod." In the same spirit, I shall not compare Boston and New York bagels. I'm a little too lazy to review this whole site to see if we've already exhausted the topic of Katz's bagels in Chelsea. Y'know Katz's? pronounced "Kates's"? If the pronounciation makes you expect a smiling Scottish lassie who serves up raisin bagels smothered in currant preserves, be not fooled. It's been years since I enjoyed a Katz' bagel, but I hope and trust they have not changed. I remember chewiness and flour-y sweetness; nearly MOIST in their freshness; dense yet somehow airy. Katz's egg bagels as eggie as the hamburger rolls at Romie's (remember those?). The onion bagels that I can only describe as RANK WITH ONION. Shmear? Toasted? I dunno about those; dumb Danvers kid ate them like donuts -- donuts that drove his jaw to exhaustion with the chewing. How many Bostonians are aware that Chelsea used to be as Jewish and Jewish can be? I mean once upon a time, some neighborhoods of Chelsea were as bustin' with the Jewishness as Southie was with Irishness -- and if you think Southie is Irish THESE days, oh ho ho. Now lemme tell you about the clam chowder in Bay Ridge... Wed May 15 11:25:24 -0700 2002 760648 0 clams247 3 760902 Now that's a switch. how often we hear from New Yorkers transplanted to this area lamenting the NY bagel. You've turned the tables. Yes I remember when Chelsea was very Jewish, I was born there and my family was in the "shmahtah" business there. Wed May 15 13:38:14 -0700 2002 760898 0 chuck s 3 761887 Could someone please give me the street address of Katz's bagels in Chelsea. I live in chelsea and would love to try these bagels. Thanks for your help. Wed Jun 19 17:11:54 -0700 2002 760898 0 Roxy 1 760655 Just got back from a weekend in New York where I lined up on Sunday Morning for H & H Bagels. Then smoked salmon at Zabar's. What a one - two punch. Still nothing like it here. Thu May 09 12:55:19 -0700 2002 760625 0 chuck s 2 760689 Why do people from NY always want to chime in with unwanted plugs about how great everything is in NYC, and how you can't get it anywhere else? Other than that, and sorry, I don't mean to be insulting Chuck, thanks to all for the suggestions. Suprised nobody's mentioned Zeppy's. Any opinions? Thu May 09 15:21:41 -0700 2002 760655 0 Alan H 3 760731 Yes, Zeppy's are great. I love their whole wheat bagels with sesame seeds. Great texture and delicious earthy flavor with a hint of sweetness. I've seen them at Bread and Circus and Harvest, but do they have a retail store of their own anywhere? Fri May 10 12:04:51 -0700 2002 760689 0 Karen 1 760672 I only have one question what really consititutes a good bagel.... I mean the best bagel I ever is still compared with other types of bread a bit off in quality.... Thu May 09 14:15:37 -0700 2002 760625 0 icecold 2 760673 A good question. A proper bagel, in my mind, should be boiled then baked. It should have a nice crusty outside, and a firm, kind of doughy, not too dry inside. Too many seem to just be bagel-shaped rolls. Thu May 09 14:25:14 -0700 2002 760672 0 Alan H 3 760675 Katz's in Chelsea meet this criteria. Thu May 09 14:28:25 -0700 2002 760673 0 BagelMan 3 760677 And, very importantly, it should be made with malt, not other sugars. This means the dough rises slowly and develops more flavor. This is one key part of the process that has been omitted as more and more bagel vendors (even in NY) outsource their operations. Rosenfelds still uses malt, btw. Thu May 09 14:41:13 -0700 2002 760673 0 Karl S. 3 760682 Boston bagels are too soft. NY bagels are denser and, since I grew up in northern NJ, better Thu May 09 15:00:46 -0700 2002 760673 0 AGM/Cape Cod 4 760686 Using malt also makes for density; other sugars make for more air, and softness. Thu May 09 15:14:24 -0700 2002 760682 0 Karl S. 4 760688 Actually, bagels didn't used to be like that here. The stuff you generally find here now are not "Boston bagels", they just happen to be what is predominantly now sold in Boston--I know, it's just semantics, but there was at one time a preponderance of quality bagels available here. Please, don't get me started on another NYC rant, there are few places I would less rather live than NYC... Thu May 09 15:18:56 -0700 2002 760682 0 Alan H 4 760712 As a northern new jersey transplant, i too can attest to the superiority of Jersey bagels over NYC. Pizza is better too.... Fri May 10 07:41:25 -0700 2002 760682 0 baruch 1 760683 I defer to the bagel experts, and humbly ask: what do you think of Iggy's bagels? I've had the sesame and poppyseed and appreciate the fact that they are completely covered with seeds. They seem dense and very chewy and flavorful to me. Thu May 09 15:05:06 -0700 2002 760625 0 chowcat 2 760687 They are wonderful for what they are, but I could never confuse them with real bagels. Thu May 09 15:16:27 -0700 2002 760683 0 Karl S. 1 760702 A strong second (or third) for Rosenfeld's in Newton Center. It sounds like they have what you're looking for. Think of an Einstein Brothers sesame bagel...and then imagine the opposite in every characteristic. Normal sized, not bloated; boiled and shiny, not baked and dull; lots of sesame seeds instead of a paltry few, and best of all a very dense, almost moist interior, not fluffy sponge that weirdly crushes when you chomp it. My kids call Rosenfeld's "black hole bagels", dense and no light escapes. But sometimes that's what you want. My husband loves Rosenfeld's pumpernickel bagels. Very, very dark. As a bonus they also sell their own cream cheese spreads that have real ingredients in them, unlike the homogenized cream cheese that stays "fresh" for 6 weeks from the industrial plant that is Bruegger's. I agree with someone else that Iggy bagels are a fine object (we love their "everything" version), but they're not really bagels. Great toasted with butter though. Thu May 09 20:51:36 -0700 2002 760625 0 sushimom 2 760718 Yup, Rosenfeld's still has the best bagels I've tried yet in Boston. They are closest in flavor/texture to my favorite bagels in NY (H&H). Fri May 10 08:32:48 -0700 2002 760702 0 Ezra 1 760900 Have been traveling and didn't discover all the bagel talk until just today although I did chime in with a related thought or two yesterday in responding to the poor soul who is hoping to find some good smoked salmon or lox in Bean town to put on a bagel. ( I suspect that Moshiach will deliver my Globe in the morning before I am able buy in Boston a truly good fresh piece of smoked salmon or lox sliced off the side of the fish by someone who really knows the business). On the subject of bagels, those who feel that bagels should come in 57 varieties remind me of the late Red Smith who upon watching the World Series of 1959 being played in the Los Angeles Coliseum with a left field wall so short that they attempted to compensate by topping it with a screen that made the Green Monster look like a picket fence, remarked, " It's interesting, but it ain't baseball." Asiago cheese, triple chocolate chip...I'm glad that my Bubbe didn't live to see the day. Independent of all the other comments, I still feel that until one has had a fine hand-made bagel, one still has something wonderful to look forward to. Wed May 15 12:48:41 -0700 2002 760625 0 Elzoe 2 760903 I never ceases to amaze me the assumptions some people make. Contrary to some pontifications, one can get a good bagel in Boston. There is great lox to be had here. There's more to the world of bagels than "plain"-- of course you could always wear plain white clothes, drive a palin white car, eat only plain vanilla ice cream,plain cheese pizza, etc, etc. Wouldn't want to turn the world off its axis. Wed May 15 14:00:58 -0700 2002 760900 0 Alan H 3 760905 Never said that you can't get a bagel in Boston that you like and think is good, whatever the variety. What I did say is that a good hand-made bagel is something very special and (as far as I know) is unobtainable here (and no, I'm not a New Yorker). I'll stick with my assertion that you can't get good lox (yet alone great lox) in Boston. Great lox doesn't come out of a package. Great lox is hand-sliced by someone who has the fine touch of a surgeon. Great lox comes off the side of a salmon that hasn't been sitting around in a dairy case for days. Great lox is sold to customers who know the difference between what's great and what's chazerie, and great lox is sold in stores whose management knows that their customers really know the difference between the two. Boychick, a suggestion: next time you're in New York head for Russ and Daughters on Houston street and choose from at least seven varieties of smoked salmon. Try some on one of the hand-made bagels they sell. I suspect that you'll notice the difference. Wed May 15 17:11:30 -0700 2002 760903 0 Elzoe 4 760915 You mean those vacuum sealed 4 oz. packages aren't the world's greatest lox? Shocked! Seriously, ther's a lot of great lox to be found. Just in Newton , for example, there's Provizer's and also Barry's Deli. Wed May 15 20:11:03 -0700 2002 760905 0 AlanH 5 760926 At the risk of putting too fine of a point on this discussion.... Are you really serious when you say that Barry's and Provizers sell 'great' lox? Barry is a terrific guy and you can get some very good home-made knishes from him but 'great' lox? Impossible. OK, he does bring his lox in from NY (with what frequency, God knows), however most of what he sells is pre-cut by machine, the rest pre-cut by hand, and all of it sits in a refrigerated case day after day waiting for the weekend trade to roll in. Still, whatever one might say of Barry's, Provzers is infinitely worse. Their lox comes from the shlemiels at Rite Foods who offer two kinds : vegetable-dyed red and washed out light pink, each having neither flavor nor texture. Provizers lox is also pre-cut by machine and sits day after day in a refrigerated case. Additionally, each slice has the wonderful property of being rectangular , a useful characteristic for those whose tastes run to four- cornered bagels. (I've often wondered whether Rite Foods has patented a technique for making synthetic salmon from recycled cardboard ). Lastly, and again, please excuse me for belaboring the point (and admittedly being pedantic) but if the term 'great' is to have meaning, shouldn't we be careful about applying it when it's not warranted? Then again, maybe Ripple and Margaux are both great . Thu May 16 11:47:54 -0700 2002 760915 0 Elzoe 6 760927 Admittedly, I haven't been to Provizer's in about 2 years, but last time I was there, they cut it to order and even let me point out the part I wanted cut. It definitely was not as you described. Thu May 16 11:51:43 -0700 2002 760926 0 Alan H 7 760931 Mr H.. Good to hear and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Two years ago? Not a problem. I suspect if you stop into Provizers today, there's a good chance that you could get another shtickel of lox from the same side of salmon. Surely you've heard the story about the woman(could have been my late beloved mother) who told the deli counterman that she wanted some nice lox sliced thin. In response to his question as to how much she wanted, the woman simply waved him on with the back of her hand and told him to start slicing. When the counterman got to the choice middle part of the salmon, the woman again waved to him and said "OK, sonny , I'll have a quarter pound - starting from where you are." Interesting that the subject of quality lox should come up now as my son and I are leaving tomorrow morning for a one-day trip to the lower east side to buy things for a very special brunch we're having on Sunday. We'll head directly to Houston street and Russ and Daughters - four generations in the business - for lox (salted and very smoky Norwegian are our favorites), kippered salmon that is fit for the world to come, as well as the most wonderful whitefish salad, creamed herring, and sturgeon I have ever had . We will also load up on bialies at Kosars on Grand as well as a terrific corn rye at Moishes on 2nd Avenue. A brace of hand-made bagels will complete the haul. (We'll be driving a Miata otherwise I'd ask you to join us.) Thu May 16 12:49:44 -0700 2002 760927 0 Elzoe 8 760935 great, have a good time. glad you're so open minded to other people's opinions and experience. Thu May 16 13:38:09 -0700 2002 760931 0 Alan H 6 760968 Thank you, thank you! You said it all. Fri May 17 09:50:46 -0700 2002 760926 0 Peter B. Wolf 2 762145 You seem to know. Where should I go in NYC for the best bagel I've ever had? Wed Jun 26 14:20:08 -0700 2002 760900 0 C. Simon