138706 Tue Apr 26 08:27:33 -0700 2005 28 11 South 0 742786 The wife and I finally tried the Allen and Sons branch on 15-501 heading into Pittsboro. I found the grub remarkably similar to that served at the more storied branch on Airport Road. Same piquant cue (my wife says she could detect a subtle lack of hickory flavor, but I'm dubious); same pathetic, limp french fries; same slaw; same country-shack decor; same hideously uncomfortable chairs (straight from the Spanish Inquisition yard sale?). The only difference I could detect concerned the hushpuppies: the Pittsboro serves less greasy pups, elongated rather than round. At the risk of bring down on my head the collective wrath of the NC Chowhounds, let me say that I'm growing a bit bored with NC cue. It's makes for a pleasant occasional meal, but it's ultimately a little bland, a little mushy, a little repetitive, not to be compared with the great regional delicacies like San Francisco sourdough or Texas/Memphis/Kansas City BBQ or New York pizza or Boston clam chowder. I say this having made a very conscientious survey over the last two years. I've tried Allen and Sons, Lexington #1, Lexington Style Trimmings, B's, Wilbur's, Stamey's, Blue Mist (underrated), Parker's, and probably a few others. So let the invective begin! (Though please don't tell me to go back to New York: I like it here, cue reservations notwithstanding). Best, David A. Tue Apr 26 08:27:33 -0700 2005 0 David A. 1 742790 I have to stand beside David in terms of not really getting the big deal about NC Cue. I probably love pork over essentially all things edible. I eat it in all it's glorious versions, and do enjoy NC Cue. I've had it at home style pickings where a careful chef made it about as well as one could hope. At this zenith, however, it was still only almost as good as a decent batch of carnitas. It probably doesn't even crack my top 20 in terms of great things to do with pig. (I'll have to give that some thought... mmm pork) Like David, I find it often mushy and rather one dimensional. Of course, there are certainly exceptions to this. However, any great regional food should be consistantly good. Again, with carnitas. Even when they're just OK, they're pretty freaking good. When they're great...devine. Tue Apr 26 09:43:27 -0700 2005 742786 0 detlefchef 2 742798 I'll throw my hat in with this posse as well. I think the greatest violation is chowing the meat until it turns into mush. Good que should not need such preparation. I still think some of the best que in America is to be found in FL, GA, and AL. Best que I ever had was at Peebles BBQ in Auburndale, FL. The pit is in the middle of the "restaurant" and the people sit at tables around the pit. David, you wife is right, though. The Pittsboro restaurant's que is less smokey. Tue Apr 26 14:09:03 -0700 2005 742790 0 Sant 3 742802 I have to agree. I'm not crazy about having my hog hacked into a hash. Really, the best 'que I've had is in Florida, Georgia and South Texas. The dry-rubbed Cuban barbeque sold in the back streets of Hialeah is just about the finest stuff to every walk on four legs. Tue Apr 26 14:59:48 -0700 2005 742798 0 flavrmeistr 4 742808 The Cuban are definitely pork aficianados. My roommate at Florida State was a Cuban guy from Hialeah. I'd visit him during Spring Break and he used to take me to this place in Hialah called Latin America(n) that had great roast pork. Then a visit to La Fe bakery for joltingly strong espresso and some super sweet desserts. Tue Apr 26 16:23:38 -0700 2005 742802 0 Sant 5 742821 Yeah, man, you know what I'm talkin' about. There was a great place on Red Road just north of 103rd in Hialeah. The best smoked chicken and ribs ever. No sauce except for Crystal on the table. A half-slab of ribs and a huge plate of moros con chicharrones y maduros for an unbelievable $4.50. Materva and Presidente Lager in a barrel of ice. Mercy! No name on the front, but you could find it by the beguiling aroma and the crowd lined up out front. Alas, it was vacant the last time I went by there. Wed Apr 27 00:46:42 -0700 2005 742808 0 flavrmeistr 4 742811 Flavor Dude...Correct me if I'm wrong, but "hash" is the whole hog preparer's solution to utilizing all the offal and misc. portions of a pit cooked whole hog. I dispute using the term "Q" dispute because of the cooking process. At Bub Sweatmans, their hash is served over rice and believe me, it's an acquired taste. You don't find hash at places that are jsut slow cooking shoulders and ribs over a wood fired pit. When you go to Tom Jenkins, there's no hash to be found. Just chopped or sliced pork from the slow cooked, smoke laden shoulders and wonderful, textured ribs...Crusty and smokey on the outside and soft and tender near the bone. ...THAT"S "Q" in my book... Whole hog is nothing like that. Yeah, it's great, if you like that texture of meat....The ribs off a whole hog cook out have the same texture as the rest of the hog...The meat is basically baked...tender but lacking the flavor of hickory wood. Am I missing something here? Tue Apr 26 16:42:56 -0700 2005 742802 0 Chuck 5 742822 It's all good cooked with wood. My preference is just not to have the meat hacked up into tiny bits. Slices and slabs are where it's at for me. Wed Apr 27 00:53:26 -0700 2005 742811 0 flavrmeistr 3 742810 Sant...So, you've been to KC, MO and tried their "Q"??? Tue Apr 26 16:29:27 -0700 2005 742798 0 chuck 4 742873 I can't say that I have, Chuck. I sure would like to get to KC some time and try it. I have tried TX, MS, AL, GA, FL, SC, NC, and Memphis (Corky's). Note, I said I think GA/FL has "some" of the best BBQ, especially since it's not considered a famous BBQ region of the country. Arguing who actually is the best is silly since it's all subjective anyway. Thu Apr 28 15:45:49 -0700 2005 742810 0 Sant 2 742809 Chef...may I suggest a trip to Kansas City, MO and try their "Q". My personal favorite is Arthur Bryant's..Their original location ...But, there are lots of other palces to try as well. I know this is a post for a midwest Board...under normal circumstances. However, we've been discussing the merits of East Coast "Q" and NC in particular. If several of you are bored and not enthralled with "NC Q" I'm only suggesting you plan a visit to KC. It is a really nice town with the best "Q" I've ever had. No, I have not had "NC Q"...But lots of you have and we're all reading your comments. Sure don't sound to me like NC is the capital of "Q" in this country. Tue Apr 26 16:28:15 -0700 2005 742790 0 Chuck 3 742812 Why Chuck, I am truely in awe of you. A thread about NC Q, you post four times and you've NEVER eaten any NC Q? At least I have been to Arthur Bryants. I generally don't comment about food I've never actually tasted. PS Thanks for finally getting my name correct. Tue Apr 26 18:24:46 -0700 2005 742809 0 Michael B 4 742814 Well read my comments again...You noted that NC had the best "Q" in the USA didn't you? I mean, your very adamant about that. Ok...Yet, we're getting comments about the specific places you have stated are better that AB's..."Far better" if I'm quoting you correctly, than AB's in KC. Yet you gave AB's a 9+ right? Ok, so what are these other places in NC that I have not been to? They have to be 10's or more right? Every single one of them. That's pretty amazing, too. Ok...But, now we're all reading comments from Hounds on NC "Q"...The best in the USA according to you. And, you know what? They don't agree with you. Listen, we've both been to AB's and The Georgia Pig right? So, I'm here to say, again, I totally disagree with your placing the GA Pig in the same league with AB's. Perhaps there are some others on the board who also have also been to both places and would care to pick a side here. It's fine with me. There's nothing wrong with a little healthy debate. You know, there are plenty of people on this site that choose their dining selections carefully; they don't want to waste their hard earned money on the wrong dining experiences. Chowhounds' comments are digested and decisions are made. They can believe your expertise on "Q" or mine or those of other posters as well. That's what it's all about. Wouldn't you agree? Tue Apr 26 20:08:53 -0700 2005 742812 0 Chuck 3 742985 Chuckie ole boy...post about what thou knowest about. Never had NC Q? Thou shalt not post about. Never had Texas Q? Thou shalt not post about. Never had NY city Q (is there such a thing?)? Thou shall not post about. See the trend????????? Chuckie I'm glad to read what you have experienced but if you haven't eaten it or even been IN THE STATE your credibility drops somewhat. DS Tue May 03 14:36:40 -0700 2005 742809 0 michael b 4 743003 If I may weigh in here... If Chuck had, in fact, spoken critically, either one way or another, on NC Q, then I would completely agree with your attacks. After all, nothing worse than someone commenting on something they know nothing about. However, that's not exactly how I see it. From what I can gather, he was simply offering alternatives to those of us who claimed not to be big fans of it. I don't see any big issue with that. "Don't like NC Q? Try KC Q, it's great!" That's all I see in what he's saying. Perhaps someone needs to chill out. Wed May 04 08:09:06 -0700 2005 742985 0 detlefchef 5 743010 Mr. Charles danced around his lack of exposure to NC Q. An earlier thread had him commenting on Jim Earley's book (let me get this right, he defends a book about a product he has never consumed cooked in a state he has never visited againt a native of that state?) Oh, never mind...let's just let this die. But last time I checked, Kansas was not in the South. Wed May 04 11:58:27 -0700 2005 743003 0 michael b 2 742813 I would have to disagree. True pig pickin bbq is outstanding. but then again my memory may be colored by the outstanding company that usually goes with a pig picking. Yet I must agree with you that the hispanic population has raised the bar with carnitas. Lovely chunks of roast pork - if only they had smoked flavor. I think they beat carolinians on getting everything but the oink out of the pig - just think about birria(sp) Tue Apr 26 19:24:01 -0700 2005 742790 0 quazi 3 742816 I don't think we disagree as much as you say. I, too, have had really good pig picking bbq. Of course, pretty much anything is good when you have the absolute best version of it. My point is that, for a dish to deserve some regional fame (as NC Cue seems to have), the generally available versions should be really good as well. Given the fact that they're using pork and thus getting a flavor head start on basically every other food, your standard issue NC Que should be tastier than it is. I didn't even mention the myriad of tasty things the Chinese and Vietnamese do with it. OK then, so here's my list: 1) Carnitas 2) Chinese Roast Pork 3) Braised Pork Spare ribs (northern chinese style) 4) Classic sweet style American BBQ pork ribs 5) Chinese Red Cooked Pork 6) Cha Gio-Vietnamese Pork and Shrimp Egg rolls wrapped in lettuce and herbs 7) Vietnamese BBQ Pork over Bun 8) Pork Sui Mai- could be rated higher actually 9) Cured and Roasted Pork Loin 10) Cassoulet (though I know this also has duck confit) 11) Pork Rillettes on toast 12) Brazillian Fejoida 13) Yucatan style roasted pork spiced with achiote condiment 14) Chile Verde-actually much higher than 14 probably more like 9 or 10 OK, this is about where I would think about throwing NC Cue in the mix, but I'm sure I'm missing plenty and that doesn't take into account the numerous variations and combinations of the above like the 1001 things one can do with Chinese Roast Pork for instance. BTW Though I know it simply refers to a stew and isn't always the same kind of meat, I've usually found birria to be made from goat rather than pig. At least that's how they typically roll out in Cali. Tue Apr 26 20:29:02 -0700 2005 742813 0 detlefchef 4 742819 Don't forget pernil, the king of roast pork dishes IMHO. Tue Apr 26 23:35:01 -0700 2005 742816 0 Webley Webster 4 742820 I would agree that NC pork usage is not as multidimensional as the others and definitley not as consistent given its fame. Ya think this mainly because of the skill needed in handling the wood versus gas or electric methods of roasting the pig? For variety we have - nc style cue - east and west, liver pudding, country ham ... any others? And I meant to type buche not birria Wed Apr 27 00:25:29 -0700 2005 742816 0 quazi 4 742825 I think you should just use that list as your menu for Grasshopper! LOL I'd eat there 3-4 times a week! Wed Apr 27 10:04:54 -0700 2005 742816 0 Sant 4 742832 One of the major porblems with getting good NC Q is knowing how to order. My daughter is the one who brought this to my attention a few years ago. We were eating at Lex #1 and she noticed that my plate was different from the one on the table next to us although we had ordered basically the same thing. I called the waitress Darling, apoligized for ordering unsweetened tea ("Darling my Daddy was a Yankee and cursed me with drinking unsweet tea"), talked about getting outside brown cut in and generally was a local. My Q was moist and chunky with brown outside pieces while my next door neighbor had what looked like dry sawdust. Looked like mine had just been chopped and his was a few hours old. In general properly ordered Q in NC is at least an eight. However we do have some real stinkers. Flip's in Wilmington is absolutely horrible, not worth giving to the dog. Stamey's in Greensboro is fantasic. A HUGE operation that maintains quality. I'll be spending a few hours googling your list. Vietnamese, Chinese and Latino foods are items I am very ignorant about. Love Japanese (twelve years w/ a Japanese trading company), Middle Eastern and French foods but not much experience with those other three. Wed Apr 27 12:15:23 -0700 2005 742816 0 Michael B 5 742846 I had the same experience at A&M Grill in Mebane. Ate there once, cue was decent but nothing special. Second time, ordered it chopped with some outside meat (trick is the word "some") and it was nearly as good as Allen & Son. I could hear them chopping it in the kitchen. There was something distinctly Lexington-style about it; I think they used a little of their tomato-based sauce, whereas the first time it was served plain. Great meal. They still use smoke, BTW. I've eaten all kinds of pork throughout America; I'm a huge fan of Chinese Roast Pork (over rice, topped with a large spoonful of the drippings) and various Latin American roast porks and carnitas and such, but I really love NC cue. Maybe the hogs are just raised better down there. North Carolinians love pigs. New Yorkers don't give pigs any respect. When I grew up in the North, pork chops were white and flavorless--then again, Jewish mothers aren't the most skilled pig roasters... NC cue is subtle, and you're supposed to taste the meat, first and foremost. I don't see how a slab of ribs either rubbed down with spices or slathered in a delicious sauce is in the same category; they're both great, and maybe you love KC BBQ more, but to me it's like comparing a risotto to a paella. Incidentally, the best cue I've ever had was in Arkansas, just west of Memphis. Ribs. Don't ask me to remember the name of the place, but everyone in there had a gun. So I didn't ask for a business card. -PAL Wed Apr 27 19:32:44 -0700 2005 742832 0 PAL 6 742865 PAL..If you want, you can e-mail me and I'll tell you all about making your own Chinese roast pork. The marinade, hanging it in the oven over a steam bath, etc. Thu Apr 28 11:56:51 -0700 2005 742846 0 Chuck 7 742880 Yep, it's a whole lot easier than people think. Thu Apr 28 17:27:22 -0700 2005 742865 0 detlefchef 1 742805 The best Q comes from the backyards of NC. Restaurants only remind us Tarheels of the good stuff from a pig picking. I try at least once a year to invite a few yankees to one of my pig picks. Since my family is from midtown that's usually easy to do. I was born in NC fifty plus years ago but am lucky to have to travel to NY six or so times a year on business (although less frequently lately). Ah yes, lunch at the Bull & Bear, dinner at Hatsuhana and then home to a $4.95 platter at Stamey's the next day. One small recommendation gents...just like the NC and SC beach restaurants have local passes (different menu and prices) if you just sit down, order unsweetened tea and point to something on the menu you're not going to get the best stuff in the place. The good stuff is limited and goes to the locals. They don't expect to ever see you again. Work on you accent, good luck there, my father lived in NC for sixty five years and still sounded like a D yankee. Tue Apr 26 15:45:25 -0700 2005 742786 0 Michael B 2 742806 Agreed about the backyard. I went on a bbq dining rampage (mostly A&S) when i first moved down here, but have def'y gotten tired of it now (~8mos later), and really only go there when friends are town. But I still really enjoy smoking ribs or brisket (or lots of other things) in the backyard with a bunch of friends. Maybe if I could find a real good brisket and real good dry (not sauced) ribs, the dining out bbq experience would be more interesting. I can't compare regional specialties with each other. Maybe that's a disability of mine, but I just can't. Tue Apr 26 16:16:54 -0700 2005 742805 0 Nab 1 742807 Oh my, oh my....Michael B? Say what? NC "Q". Aren't these the places you said are the best in the country? All above that 9+...The rating you gave AB's in KC. Something seems amiss here...... This is great. I love it. Hey, I'm still going to get to Stamey's, Allen & Son's, The Skylight etc. pardon me if I don't go back to anoyher one of your favorites.The Ga Pig. Boy, you know.... I've never heard any such negative utterances from any Hound about KC "Q"....NEVER. Tue Apr 26 16:19:36 -0700 2005 742786 0 Chuck 1 742994 What did you do to get bad fries at Allen and Sons in Pittsboro. I've eaten there 20 or 30 times in the last few years and have never gotten bad fries or slaw for that matter. My wife hates NC Q and goes with me every time I go there just for the fries. I also take issue to posting bad reviews based on one visit. Any place can have a bad or for that matter good night. Tue May 03 16:32:41 -0700 2005 742786 0 Bob