136394 Thu Jun 05 18:52:35 -0700 2003 14 11 South 0 731714 I'm a newbie to Chowhound – and I love it - what a wonderful opportunity to exchange opinions, reviews, "vents", ideas, etc. But, being a born and bred Southerner and very proud of it - I get frustrated by comments/complaints in emails about the lack of variety or quality of food down South. Come on, every place anyone has ever been has things we don't like - but the courteous thing is to keep such criticism to yourselves. I've lived around the country and visited most every major metropolitan city - and eaten at some fabulous restaurants (Chez Panisse, French Laundry, Daniel etc.). And let's face it - the best places are the ones that skip the hype and focus on the food with the best ingredients and make it with care and lots of love thrown in. So, if you don't like it – keep looking until you find something you do like – but don’t lump all the food down here as awful - because there are some of us that like the South (and it’s food) the way it is - not the way the others of you want it to be - cuz' we're never going to be New York or Chicago or LA (thank heavens). There is a wonderful variety to our food culture (just see all the postings about 'Q) — and maybe a few less Taiwanese restaurants might just be a good thing! Not to suggest that variety is a bad thing – I love a great meal of Thai anytime I can get it! But if you miss where ever you came from that much - move back. Let’s focus on the food – that’s the important thing after all. Thu Jun 05 18:52:35 -0700 2003 0 Tela T 1 731715 Well, let's have a little argument. We just got back from a tour of several Southern cities and I made it a point to select a diverse dining plan. You know, there are many people who do get tired of eating Southern food every day on a vacation. One of the biggest disputes I have had on this site involved The Lady and Son in Savannah. They get rave reviews for producing some of the most mundane foods. Foods that you and I can produce on any given Sunday. I just didn't see what all the fuss was about. And, that is my only criticism of Savannah. Lots and lots of Southern food and very limited, if any, other ethnic restaurants. And, some of the ones they do have were not great - especially their Italian offerings. We love the beauty of the Savannah, but frankly Charleston offers visitors a much more diverse choice of eateries. That's a pretty darn good restaurant town. In our recent trip, we were lucky enough to visit big Southern cities and one, in particular, Nashville, had some terrific and very non- Southern restaurants. They are doing some terrific things in that town - A wonderful place to visit, if you dig country music. Oh, and Birmingham, also has some terrific alternatives to the traditional Southern fare eateries. Thu Jun 05 20:25:29 -0700 2003 731714 0 Chuck 2 731720 Well, let's see. In much reading of this board, I see people who are raving about this "ethnic" restaurant or this other marvelously "different" restaurant in all sections on the US, Canada, and abroad. Yet the marvelously "different" dishes tend to be the same, some prepared and presented better than others but nevertheless basically the same dishes. It seems to me that sampling Thai food in Nashville, X ethnic food in Chicago, Y ethnic food in Ypsilanti, and Z ethnic food in Billings is simply moving from one saminess to another. To lump Southern food into one thing with no local variations is much the same as saying that all Thai food is the same, regardless of whether you eat it in LA or New York or Bangkok. Southern food in Virginia is different from Southern food in North Carolina, which is different from South Carolina, Georgia, etc., all the way to Texas. Naturally, you might want a break from that, and you can certainly find such a break in any fair-sized town in the South, the same as anywhere else, but there are numerous local dishes unique to each area, if you are interested in finding them. You speak of Charleston in rather glowing terms vis-a-vis the restaurant situation. Charleston (I'm from there) is a much more tourist oriented city than Savannah, and the problem there is to find a restaurant that serves real Southern or Lowcountry food, other than a few seafood places outside of the city, and even those are changing due to having been "discovered." What you get at most of the restaurants in Charleston is a bevy of fusion-type adaptations of what the management conceives of what will appeal most to the tourist's idea of what Charleston "cuisine" ought to be, with one establishment vying with another in bringing out a new combination of ingredients. Creamy grits is a good example, it having been born rather recently (after the tourist boom), although I will admit to having seen people from the North putting milk and sugar on their grits when I was in college. Similarly, cheese grits seem to have begun in college cafeterias in the South as a way of making grits palatable to the influx of Northern students enrolling in Southern colleges. But not much in these restaurants can be considered Southern cooking, and a large portion of their offerings are much the same as everywhere else. For true lowcountry foods, you would have to be invited into someone's home. True shrimp and grits is simply plain buttered grits with cold boiled shrimp, preferably shelled as needed by the eater (with the shrimp standing on their tails in the grits, if you have children), not some of the wild concoctions I've seen served in restaurants. Understandably, Southern foods and cooking are not to everyone's taste, and eating the same type of things everyday can be both boring and cloying, but let's not put down a region if it prefer's to stick with what is appreciated locally. I mean how many people in Plano Texas or Columbia, SC are going to rush out to sample the latest Dim Sum (although people here in SC have been eating chicken feet for generations). Fri Jun 06 08:26:20 -0700 2003 731715 0 Sandy 3 731737 I can't speak for South Carolinians, but the answer is: a great many people in Plano, Texas, thank you. Fri Jun 06 18:42:47 -0700 2003 731720 0 Zorra 4 731774 You mean y'all eat that raw fish stuff over younder in Plano? Wooooweee! And here I wuz thinkin' y'all was good people. Why here in South Carolina we don't cotton much to that Dim Sum stuff. We like to fry our fish up real good before we eat it. Damn son, what's next, you gonna eat some of that crazy France food what with the snails and all? Well, let me tell you what, I'd sure enough like to tell y'all about all the great Sourthen food I've done ate in my lifetime, but me and the boys are fixin to drink a little shine, eat some chitlins', and pick a little banjo, so I gotta git. btw, sorry about all them spellin errors. I hear they have fancy computers that'll fix 'em all up right automatic like, but down here we git on the computer web by an old Speak -n- Spell that Goober hooked up to the telephone junction. Old Goob's a live wiere he is! It's pretty fancy and we're all mighty proud of it. That shine is startin'to kick in now, so y'all visit soon, ya hear? YEEEEEE HAW! Mon Jun 09 02:18:39 -0700 2003 731737 0 Redneck From South Carolina 4 731776 I'm not quite sure how to take this or Redneck's posting which follows, but although I have no statistics to back it up, I somehow can't imagine that a significant portion of the population of either city, or most others, are so enamoured of or familiar with Dim Sum that they would rush out to get the latest. I don't mean to put down the people of Plano or anywhere else, but let's face it, this kind of food appeals to a relatively small portion of the total population in this country. But, as I said, chicken feet, as well as innards of most kinds, have been standards in the diet of South Carolinians for several hundred years at least, even though they were not a "thing to do" on restaurant menus. The Chowhound group is a vibrant and interesting bunch, but it cannot in any way be considered as representing the tastes of the majority of people who eat "out" in this country - witness the steady lamentations about chain and fast food establishments, how lamentable it is that most people prefer such places, and how abysmal is the taste of most people. BTW, I didn't find Cooper's listed on the restaurant lists I checked for Plano - maybe I got the wrong sites. Mon Jun 09 08:01:30 -0700 2003 731737 0 Sandy 2 731725 One quibble with Chuck's post: Nashville is a great place to visit -- whether you like country music or not. Fri Jun 06 10:39:15 -0700 2003 731715 0 pogophiles 1 731722 The mistake you make is thinking those who complain about Southern restaurants are all transplants. My family transplanted to SC in the 17th century and we're still here. But, God help me, the restaurants are inferior in the South. I don't know why. But if you go to the same size city somewhere else, the restaurants, as a whole, will be of better quality. From the frou-frou places to the most casual cafe. Of course there are fabulous places down South and terrible places up North, but that's not the way to bet. The closest town to me with good rests. is a retirement destination. More Yankees = demand for better food. Don't think it doesn't gall me, but it's true. Our much larger city has (almost) nothing but chains, and 99% of people I know have no clue why I consider chains a problem. And as for your comment on "criticsm", well isn't that what this site is all about? Critisism with it's real meaning, which is commentary whether good or bad. If I come to your house and you serve dog food, I'm going to eat it and smile and thank you graciously. That's courtesy. But on a board like this we are supposed to tell the truth. Now, if I've misunderstood you, and you meant actual "food", not restuarants, I apologize. I think our food is great too. And so does my Yankee husband who marvels at the quality of food served at my family's gatherings. But I'm afraid outsiders who only eat in restaurants in the South will never know what they are missing. Fri Jun 06 09:10:42 -0700 2003 731714 0 danna 2 731738 There is a major difference & much of it is cultural. The South has always had the idea (& note I am a Southerner of the first order) that "hospitality" is indigenous to one's home. If you wish to show "hospitality" to some one you invite them into your home & you prepare food for them. We see that in just about every situation. Instead of taking the minister out to dinner we invite them to our home. Instead of catering a wedding reception/rehearsal dinner we invite people to a home made dinner in the "fellowship hall" of the church. Instead of taking mourners to a meal after a funeral we have a community bring food to the family's home. This is just part of our culture. Restaurants in the South usually opened near the court house where folks were not able to get home for lunch. They served the same type of food you would have gotten at home but were there for those who could not make it home for lunch. Those are the restaurants that are still praised in culinary books, magazines, & reviews b/c they are true Southern cooking. Lunch counters were similar. It was more of a necessity than a restaurant. Hot dogs at pool halls are praised in the South. That has nothing to do w/ the hot dogs but the social aspect & the fact that those pool rooms were probably the only place to get a cold beer in the entire county. "Tea rooms" in larger cities were more of a social occasion than an opportunity for the food. A good barbecue joint would open & get business b/c it was not something you would do at home on a regular basis. Smoking a hog was a major ordeal & if some one was willing to do it then you should go & visit. Chinese, Italian, Mexican restaurants would open & would get business b/c they were considered different, & again, not food you would get at home. People ask me where to get good Southern food & I never recommend a restaurant. I tell them to drive about 2 hours away fr/ the city & find a little clapboard church & ask when they are going to have homecoming. That is where you can find real, live, honest to God food prepared by loving hands & w/ no pretensions except to make it good. Fri Jun 06 22:59:02 -0700 2003 731722 0 Lan4Dawg 3 731741 Great post, Lan. As a native southerner now living far North of the Mason Dixon line, I often find myself craving the kind of southern food that my mom and Grandmothers put on the table for Sunday dinner. I've been fortunate to find a solid soul food place here where I live that can prepare a great glass of sweet tea and some mean fried chicken. And nobody looks at me funny for saying the blessing before I eat. However, the south has really opened up its culinary boundaries over the last ten years. I have found great Mexican, Thai and Vietnanese in Charlotte. I have found good Vietnamese in North Charleston. I'm sure the same could be said for Atlanta. What I really miss are the Cantonese American places that dotted the southern landscape in the sixties, seventies and eighties with their "Hong Kong Trained Chefs". The food at those places was so very inauthentic that it wouldn't even be recognized as Chines in China. However, it was part of my childhood that remains etched in my memory. I guess that folks need to realize that you're no more likely to find good red sauce family style italian in South Carolina than you are to find homestyle southern cooking in New Jersey. Every area has its culinary specialities. To me, being a Chowhound is all about going out and discovering those specialties in their native environment. Here are some things I really like: Italian Beef at Johnnies in Chicago Fried Chicken at the Country Ham House in Greenville Otiels Authentic Mexican in Houston What A Burger in the Southwest Kopps Frozen Custard in Milwaukee Dim Sum on Mott Street in New York City Sunday Gravy at Jerry's in East Rutherford Fried Ravioli in St. Louis Ribs in Memphis Brisket at Goode Barbeque in Texas Those skinny little crispy dogs at Gray's Papaya in New York Grouchos in Columbia Its all good and its all from all over. Sat Jun 07 02:26:32 -0700 2003 731738 0 YourPalWill 1 731723 I'm a born and bred New Englander and lived in Atlanta from '90-'97. Having lived in CT, Western Mass and Boston, I can honestly say that the food in Atlanta was far and beyond the BEST food I had in any of the other places I'd lived previously.....including Boston! I do not count NY in this evaluation, which certainly can't be compared to anywhere else in the U.S. I also tremendously enjoyed the foods in the rural areas of Georgia and North Carolina. I don't think that most "chowers" dis southern food as a whole. I think most folks are just interested in finding really tasty morsels whereever they go. I have certainly read a number of sparkling comments from a variety of southern regions regarding a variety of foods. You say you are new to the boards......I suggest a search for threads relating to southern foods to see what's out there. And enjoy (Go Varsity dogs!) Fri Jun 06 09:12:35 -0700 2003 731714 0 Science Chick 1 731744 I couldn't have said it better! Sat Jun 07 10:03:08 -0700 2003 731714 0 Laura 1 731760 Based on the dig about Taiwanese restaurants, I assume the above post was inspired by my own post just below. Four points: 1) Criticism is the engine of progress, a way of raising consciousness, both one's own and that of others. Criticism is the exercise by which the intellect develops and truth comes into focus. 2) Honest -- sometimes scathing -- criticism provides a crucial function on this board by helping people AVOID the expense and disappointment of mediocre restaurants. Warning against a patent rip-off is one of the most valuable ways of contributing to this board. 3) Southern restaurant food is very good at times, but in so many cases -- at least here in North Carolina -- the local ethnic restaurants especially are barely making an effort, are merely going through the motions. They are essentially trading on the ignorance and indifference of their clientelle. This kind of betrayal of craft deserves criticism whenever and wherever it occurs. 4) Many Southern eateries (like our own Mama Dips) seem to be trading on a kind of nostalgia and/or tourist interest, and serve up food that is both utterly crappy and expensive. These kinds of restaurants also need to be taken to task. The surprising thing, by the way, is how little indigenous Southern food there is to be had in North Carolina. Without the numerous ethnic restaurants in our area, the need for which the originator of this thread rather blithely dismisses, there would not actually be very much to eat! David A. Sun Jun 08 10:22:26 -0700 2003 731714 0 David A. 2 731764 That sums it up pretty well. Good is good and crappy is crappy, no matter what the sign says outside or how long they've been in business or where they happen to be located. It's the infinite gray area between good and crappy that provokes such fascinating debate on this site and the main reason I can't quit dialing in. Sun Jun 08 12:53:11 -0700 2003 731760 0 flavrmeistr 1 731881 ...with the rancid grease taste they serve at the White Swan off of I-40 exit 319 in NC threw me for a loop, but what in the world is "country Italian". It gives me nightmares about hush puppies parmigiana!!! Thu Jun 12 17:16:27 -0700 2003 731714 0 Ed