127102 Tue Nov 11 19:52:37 -0800 2003 17 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 689521 ok, so i'm from new york and i'll be visiting n'awlins for my 2nd time this spring. can someone please tell me, what is the difference between creole and cajun cooking? i've done some google searches on it but didn't really get to what i would imagine is the zeitgeist of this differentiation. thanks in advance. Tue Nov 11 19:52:37 -0800 2003 0 PC Android 1 689523 Cajun is simple, country food, traditionally made from cheap products. Like poor people used to eat before the ingredients became fashionable. Red beans and rice, gumbo, grialledes and grits, crawfish. It is hard to find cajun food, but Alex Patout's has some. Creole is a blend of this with French city food with its rich sauces. Crayfish Etouffee comes to mind. Tue Nov 11 20:31:29 -0800 2003 689521 0 charles 2 689524 Charles You are right that Cajun food began as country food and Creole food as city food. However, both traditions have gumbo, although quite different. Creole gumbo uses okra for flavor and thickening and is a seafood soup. Cajun gumbo uses file powder for thickening and flavor and is more based on chicken, sausages and game, though seafood can be an ingredient. The word, gumbo is said to have come from an African word for okra, the characteristic ingredient of Creole gumbo, and the word, gumbo is also said to have come from the Choctaw Indian word for sassafras, the native source of file powder. I left New Orleans in the mid 1970's. At that time, Cajun food was hard to come by in the Crescent City. Bon Ton Cafe was one place, and there was Elmo's Little Cajun Cuisine out near Clearview. You certainly wouldn't find Cajun food at classic Creole spots such as Galitoire's, Antoine's, Dooky Chase, or the very down home Buster Holmes on Burgundy. Red Beans and Rice were certainly available and were considered Creole. Griallads and grits, old timey Creole. Crawfish etoufe was not widely available and was considered Cajun. In general, Cajun food is more firey and less refined, but not necessarily simpler. It takes a lot of work to make those cheap ingredients taste good! Everything changed when Paul Proudhomme, a Cajun, opened K-Pauls in New Orleans, a Creole Town. His influence on local, national and international food is still felt, but it is not the Creole food that I grew up with. It has become strongly identified with New Orleans cuisine and the line has been blurred between Creole and Cajun. Bob Tue Nov 11 21:42:14 -0800 2003 689523 0 gumbolox 1 689525 Cajun food is country food and Creole food is city food. Thats the simple differnce. I wouldnt really go as far as to say that the line between the two is blurred but they do intersect. Both cuisines have gumbo, but there are some dishes that are strictly creole. Real cajun food IMO is actually hard to find in New Orleans, The Bon Ton, K-pauls, thats about it. Do what you can to avoid tourist traps. (if theres loud cajun music and a stufffed alligator in front of the place stay away !!) Creole food is for the most part what you will find in NOLA. Check this board as there are many choices. In addition to what the others have posted it must be said that creole food has been greatly influnenced by not just the French who settled in the quarter, but by others as well. Creole-Italian is a good example of this (not a gimmick) Many immigrants contributed to the cuisine. In case you dont already know, please allow me to point out a few things: 1.Creole/Cajun does not neccesarily mean spicy. I preffer well seasoned. (The greatest thing that ever happed to the cuisine is nationwide publicity. The worst thing that ever happened was also nationwide publicity) Unfortunately many newcommers are mislead by marketing schemes of chain resteraunts. If something is very spicy your waiter will warn you. 2.) Emeril Lagasse is NOT GOD. His resteraunts are very good, but if you visit only E's places while here you will have missed the real New Orleans. We were here for decades before Emeril came to town. Do not ever use the word Bam. 3.) Crawfish are not in season right now. If a resteraunt has them they are Chinese (inferior). 4.) Oysters are in season, order instead of crawfish 5.) It's crawfish, not crayfish, never crawdad 6.) Paul Prudhomme invented/popularized blackening. To my knowledged he blacken redfish and prime rib. Blacked chicken was invented by a chain. Chains are evil. 7.) There is no such cut or method called a "Bourbon Street steak". More Chain nonsense I didn't mean to preach I really hope you have a great time. If you have more specific questions, just ask Mike Tue Nov 11 22:26:43 -0800 2003 689521 0 saintexpedite 2 689553 What do you think of Alex Patout vis-a-vis cajun restaurants. Surely there is the lineage both to real Acadiana and also to the popularization of Cajun food in the 80's. I have had a few very good meals at his places, especially his place on St. Charles, but I never visited the mothership. Wed Nov 12 16:40:28 -0800 2003 689525 0 Vital Information 3 2907405 I've been to Patout's in the quarter a few times, and the food is good. Come to think of it, we always had good service, too. It's a nice little place that's off the beaten path, and I may not be the best judge of this, but I think it stands up well to other Cajun restaurants in town. The food is soulful and comforting; no flashy, restauranty gimmicks here. Go elsewhere if you're looking for highly innovative cuisine. Mon Sep 03 17:49:40 -0700 2007 689553 117273 kmnola 2 689611 This is no big deal but what's wrong with "crawdads"? I used to catch these things in Missouri with my Grandad (Pop) when I was a kid and, call me crazy but they sure looked like what I've eaten at Acme many times. Crawfish, crawdads, ditch crickets, mudbugs, whatever! It's a colloquialism. Get over it. They are great to eat, period. God, I wish I lived in N.O. and not Detroit. Bob Sun Nov 16 00:47:41 -0800 2003 689525 0 Sony Bob 3 689647 No real big deal, you can call crawfish whatever you want. However, people in New Orleans call them crawfish. Yes it is a colloqualism, and in this particular locale there called crawfish. I guess I need to elaborate on what I was trying to say. If you wish to get the real New Orleans experience, you should attempt to learn local customs, including such details as how to say crawfish. The crawfish, as well as the other "helpfull hints" were never really intended to be that serious, OK. I'm sure this sounds picky, but you will find that many local people in New Orleans will very much appreciate it when you take the time to learn a little. I'll get off the soap box now. I do wish you the best time while you're here Crawfish, Crawjackers, crawdads (arrrrg!), however are not in season now. Ok? Tue Nov 18 01:04:38 -0800 2003 689611 0 saintexpedite 4 689648 Or then again you could go to a restraunt and order a "Blackened Bourbon street Steak with Crawdad sauce" Tue Nov 18 01:09:56 -0800 2003 689647 0 saintexpedite 1 689536 Creole and cajun are terms with complicated meanings; ethnicity in Louisiana is never a simple subject. I'll start with cajun, which is a little easier to explain: --The word Cajun is a corruption of Acadian and in contemporary useage, is applied to the traditionally French-speaking people of south Louisiana (and extreme E Texas). Some of these folks (myself included) trace their families back to French settlers of Nova Scotia who were expelled by the British--others have just lived in s LA so long, they're acculturated. Cajun foodways emphasize local ingredients, especially wild game, seafood, and local produce, with some distinctive Spanish, African and Native American influences (jambalaya, okra, file). Long-cooking techniques (smothering, stewing, soups) and use of onions, garlic, bell peppers, and celery as aromatic seasonings are also central to cajun cooking. Good cajun food is home cooking--not often found at its peak in restaurants, even in Acadiana. Creole has quite a few meanings. Certain white New Orleanians with European ancestry and roots in colonial Louisiana consider themselves Creoles. Certain black New Orleanians (often french-speaking, or at least their grandparents were) also consider themselves Creole. Yet another population of Louisianians--descendants of free people of color along the Cane River in central LA--are also Creole. Finally, a certain segment of french-speaking blacks from South Louisiana call themselves Creole, although they are sometimes culturally indistinct from their Cajun neighbors. Anyway, as applied in New Orleans area restaurants, Creole refers to a french-derived cooking tradition with Louisiana ingredients (native seafood, produce). Yes, as others have mentioned, it's city food. More precisely, it's restaurant food, largely not home cooking. The two aren't separated by an inpermeable wall--it's more a question of different style or technique applied to many of the same ingredients. Wed Nov 12 10:30:23 -0800 2003 689521 0 Hungry Celeste 2 689538 HC - A+ for brevity, thoroughness and accuracy. Please move to the head of the class. Wed Nov 12 11:13:16 -0800 2003 689536 0 buce 3 689556 Amen! I went to see Leroy Thomas and the Zydeco Roadrunners last week (we have Louisiana bands a couple times a month here in NYC). He bills himself as the Creole Cowboy, which I wondered about since it didn’t go with any of the definitions of Creole that I was aware of -- but I only knew two. HC’s post provides information about a complicated but very interesting topic. And the band rocked, by the way. Wed Nov 12 17:02:04 -0800 2003 689538 0 lintsao 2 689577 HC I think you've gone a long way towards clearing up a point that, in my view, can never be delineated by what the lawyers call a "bright line." To my way of thinking, "Creole" involves the Carribean influence which was itself influenced by the Mediterranean folks who colonized there (including the Spanish, of course). Arroz con Pollo has LONG been thought of as the antecedent to jambalaya and "Moros y Christianos" is a black bean version of RB&R. Well...what's new? I agree with you general thought that Creole is city but I suggest that it is not only found in restaurants. Maybe I read the comment wrong but in my life, home cooking IS creole in New Orleans. I'm guessing that you were making a distiction betweenm "home cookin' " in, say, St Martinville versus someone on Nashville Ave. Correct me if I am wrong. (Nothin' more fun that a Food Fight, y'know!) I've done a considerable bit of work researching various goodies and have run-to-earth several Louisiana specialites that have varied from their French ancestors. Grillades is a great example. Grillades are not unique to New Orleans although the NOLA version is a sublime pnvention--one of America's greatests contributions to living a life well. BUT, there are other Grillades in the state...they are NOT the NOLA version.. As far as gumbo goes, well, color is a matter of taste in both flavort and (if you care about it) color. Okra is NEVER in file gumbo....this is a law enacted before God was born......a heretic who'd do such a thing would be cast into Infernal Judgement. BTW, file always tastes better whn it comes out of a re-used Gerber Baby Food bottle-----or, maybe, a re-used Miller Pony bottle. all the best H Wed Nov 12 23:22:17 -0800 2003 689536 0 Hazelhurst 3 689626 Y'know, Hazel, file does taste best out of a recycled bottle...but we have no babies, so no more baby food jars. We've switched to surplus spice jars. As for grillades, a Haitian friend tells me of a dish her family calls "grille"--chunks of pork pan- or deep-fried. Related, but still slightly different. I love the intersections of linguistics and food! For the record, I like the country grillades much better than the city ones. Sun Nov 16 20:30:33 -0800 2003 689577 0 Hungry Celeste 1 689550 I find that some Louisiana dishes are on both cajun and creole menus. Red beans and rice I thought was much more creole in nature but you do see them in Cajun land. Grillades and Grits I really put in the creole category. However, dishes like Redfish courtbouillon, trout margery, oysters bienville, eggs sardou,and turtle soup, are usually only Creole. On the other hand, crawfish etouffee, rabbit sauce piquant, and boudin are decidedly cajun. Now, I have finally figured out a difference between the cajun and creole jambalaya and gumbo. The cajun gumbo will not have okra or will hardly ever use tomato. The creole gumbo has a roux but it is never dark as molasses as you see in Cajun gumbo. If it has game and andouille sausage, it is certainly more cajun. The same goes for the jambalaya. It is never dark brown in color when cooked in a Creole kitchen and the Cajuns hardly ever use tomato. Wed Nov 12 16:07:49 -0800 2003 689521 0 Mikey 2 689552 I'm obviously a little out of date in my Louisiana eating, but I do not see the differences in gumbos that you describe. It is my experience that seafood gumbo is always very dark, near black and almost always has okra regardless of whether it is Cajun or Creole. Chicken gumbo or more modern gumbos like those served at Emerils and Mr. B's are more brown and typically do not have okra. I have heard before that city jambalaya was red from tomatoes and country jambalaya was brown from not. I do not know, but one of my favorite jambalaya's in New Orleans, at Streetcar Sandwiches was very much brown (and made by someone from Wisconsin to boot!). Rob Wed Nov 12 16:33:59 -0800 2003 689550 0 Vital Information 2 689560 Perhaps, Mikey, your sample size was a bit small to draw any real conclusions? Many cajun gumbos have okra; some have tomato. An excellent one at Randolph's Restaurant in Golden Meadow, LA, has both, plus a tiny bit of oregano. And both cajuns and creoles make red & brown jambalayas. Often, the same cook has various versions, red and brown, that feature the same main ingredients. So, I'm again reminding everyone that cajun and creole are lots closer than kissing cousins. It's virtually the same food...any rulemaking or attempts to definitely categorize a dish or particular set of ingredients as one and not the other is doomed to oversimplify the issues at hand: LA food & ethnicity are intertwined and quite complex. Wed Nov 12 17:16:13 -0800 2003 689550 0 Hungry Celeste 3 689578 Hence the phrase "gumbo culture"? It's whatever your mamma nem be making that day. Spencer Wed Nov 12 23:57:20 -0800 2003 689560 0 Spencer