114578 Tue Dec 30 15:19:08 -0800 2003 16 7 Chicago Area 0 623713 As many of you might have heard already, there is a new movement sweeping through many fine restaurants embracing the philosophy of raw foods or living foods. Sure, as a veggie head, I can appreciate any chance for bringing vegetarian/vegan options to fine cuisine, but does it work? Can you pull off raw food as fine cuisine? Now with the publication of Trotter's new cookbook (written with Roxanne Klein), "Raw" it seems that this movement has hit the big time. I've never been to Roxanne's restaurant in CA nor opted for the raw menu at Trotter's, but after flipping through the book, I have to admit I am very intrigued. I've always loved the veggie menu at Trotter's, and have tried to adapt a lot of my cooking in his style. But using cashew cheese in a terrine? Has anybody tried these dishes before? If you are unfamiliar with raw foods, it is the concept that when processed, foods lose much of their nutritional value. Hence, raw cuisine prohibits using foods that have been "processed," in other words, the temp of the food is not allowed to reach 118 deg F. This also precludes the use of any meat, poultry, fish, or animal product (cheese, milk, cream, eggs). The thought goes on to say that all foods inherently have the requisite digestive enzymes to break itself down. When you cook food, these enzymes are then denatured and lost. This translates into "more stress" for our GI tract and less complete breakdown and use of the food. Tue Dec 30 15:19:08 -0800 2003 0 Musigny 1 623718 It's silly. But if it makes someone feel better about themselves, why not? Doesn't surprise me that Trotter would go for something like it. Tue Dec 30 15:49:40 -0800 2003 623713 0 Kirk 2 623786 I tasted a "raw food" offering from Charlie (mushroom pave) at the 2002 City Meals event in Manhattan, mind you, I am a huge supporter of CT and applaud his progressions, digressions and obsessions. It is rare to see a chef so willing to experiment and go out on limb like CT. However, I will note that I found the cooked food offerings from other notables, Susan Spicer, Alice Waters, Nobu, Stephen Pyles and many others to be more satisfying. The dogma associated with this movement baffles me.... I myself will stick to braised, stewed, smoked, roasted and fried "meat products" from animals that subscribe to a "raw food" diet. STP Fri Jan 02 13:21:55 -0800 2004 623718 0 stirs-the-pot 1 623725 Hey Musigny, Don't have much to offer on the way of raw foods, but I bet you'd generate a much more thorough discussion by posting on the General Topics board. I look forward to reading the responses, as I think this is a pretty interesting topic. If you're just looking for raw food in Chicago, or to discuss the menu at Trotter's, then this, of course, will get you the best answers. Good luck! Cheers, Aaron Tue Dec 30 16:57:01 -0800 2003 623713 0 Aaron D 2 623726 I wanted to hear general thoughts and to hear if anyone tried the Raw menu at Trotters or have tried any other of the Raw restaurants in Chicago...like Karyn's on N. Halsted. But that is a good idea...I will post it on the main board as well. Thanks! Tue Dec 30 17:12:40 -0800 2003 623725 0 Musigny 3 623728 I am a big supporter of the RAW movement. Ive eaten the RAW menu at Trotters - and it is extraordinary although more expensive than even the Kitchen Table menu. The cost for the RAW menu is $200. The reason being so exspensive is the labor - intensive process of the cuisine - and the exotic and even more unusual ingredients than you can usually expect from Chef Trotter. I also was fortunate to be at a luncheon that Chef Trotter and Chef Klein put on focusing on the cuisine in their recent book, RAW. It was an incredible event. You can check out some pics of the event in the following link... Link: http://food.muvment.com/index.php?showtopic=1040&hl=trotter Tue Dec 30 17:28:26 -0800 2003 623726 0 awbrig 4 623976 Wow, amazing pics. I am in envy. I wonder how I can get on the invite list at one of those parties! =) My question, have you tried the Vegetable menu at Trotter's? If so, how does the Raw menu compare to that in terms of taste. Let's try to leave out the philosophy of the movement, and focus purely on the sensory. Were the flavors adequate? I would imagine that without cooking, the flavors would have a harder time to integrate with each other, and you would end up with too many strong, competing flavors, as opposed to complimentary flavors enhancing each other. Have you experienced other "gourmet" raw meals in Chicago? How did you find the wine pairings with the menu? Would it be too difficult to pair bigger wines with the dishes successfully? Wed Jan 07 01:24:14 -0800 2004 623728 0 Musigny 1 623727 >If you are unfamiliar with raw foods, it is the >concept that when processed, foods lose much of their >nutritional value. Actually, many raw foods are heavily processed. They just aren't cooked. You can't claim a terrine is unprocessed food. (You also can't claim to make a cheese out of cashews, as far as I'm concerned. It's an even stupider idea than turkey pastrami.) As you might already suspect, it strikes me as new age hogwash. There are many things I've eaten raw, including steak tartare, but the ideas of calling it a cuisine and of claiming there are health benefits are off the map for me. It's one thing for food faddists to get suckered into it, but I'm really sorry to see Trotter falling for this. Tue Dec 30 17:26:02 -0800 2003 623713 0 Bob S. 2 623977 Let me try to clarify this topic. I am not interested in arguing if or if not the concept of raw foods is sound, I am interested if raw foods can be prepared in such a way so that it can be considered "fine dining." I did not mean for this thread to be about nutrition, but rather if this type of cuisine can be made in such a way to rival (in taste and complexity) other known bastions of culinary delight. In other words, I don't want to eat a raw carrot, I want to eat bleeding heart beet ravioli with a morel mushroom and black truffle emulsion. Wed Jan 07 01:27:43 -0800 2004 623727 0 Musigny 1 623730 Just a reminder- please keep the discussion on this thread focused on the raw food movement in chicago, and use the thread linked below (on the General Topics board) for discussion of raw cuisine in general. Thanks very much and a Happy New Year to all! Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/295536#1624518 Tue Dec 30 21:55:01 -0800 2003 623713 2 The Chowhound Team 1 623733 Which Chicago restaurants, if any, serve "everyday" raw cuisine ?? A friend of Oprah's had such a restaurant a few years back but it closed, if I'm not mistaken. Wed Dec 31 01:01:49 -0800 2003 623713 0 Curious Foodie 2 623978 At $200 a person... Charlie Trotter's 816 W. Armitage Ave. 773-248-6228 or For what I am assuming to be quite a bit less... Karyn's 1901 N. Halsted St. 312-255-1590 But, a friend who has talked at length about this subject with a few of the chefs at some of Chicago's top restaurants, has mentioned that the new mostly vegetarian restaurant Green Zebra may offer a few raw dishes. Has anyone encountered raw options at other fine dining establishments in Chicago? I would be interested if anyone has been to either of these places or if there are others in the city... Wed Jan 07 01:33:07 -0800 2004 623733 0 Musigny 1 623779 Yes, I've had a raw-food meal at Karyn's. But it has been awhile ... at least a year ore more (I ate at the old Lincoln Avenue location). Her menu is probably different in the new place (I hear it's more upscale; the old place was more of a cafe with takeout). My review should be taken with a grain of salt, because I am not a raw foodie. My dining companion and I were just walking by the place and saw the place and said "what the heck." We walked in and were immediately amused, because the counter staff was eating takeout (cooked) from someplace else. We asked what was good, and peered into a big vat of soup. The counterman said it was guacamole soup and was a great detoxifyer, then he laughed and whispered that it tasted "bad" and counseled us not to order it. We tried it anyway, and it was OK. Chilled, bland. I ordered a faux lasagna, made with raw vegetables and a thick nut paste in lieu of cheese (might have been chestnuts?). Served room temperature, it was not terrible at all. The dominant flavor came from a strong concentrated tomato paste. My dining companion ordered a "maki roll" of various vegetables and a different kind of nut paste. It didn't seem to actually be rolled, and it bore no resemblance to maki. It tasted funky -- what's the taste I'm trying to describe? Earthy. May have had raw mushrooms ground up into a paste. Served with the entrees were crackers of pounded, dried sheets of some sort of grain. They did not taste good to me. Then we tried several desserts (samples of some, and two full portions). I recall a carob dessert that was, again, filled with heavy nut puree, grains, and, I think, coconut. There was also a white "cake" whose components I could not identify. The desserts were very, very heavy. Of course they would be, because they cannot be baked. Cake contains air; these desserts were completely solid, containing various strata of sweetened, pulverized nuts and grains. The food struck me as heavy and high in fat, though I suppose it was all "good fat." I went in expecting mostly vegetables and fruits prepared in different ways; instead, I was surprised to find that much effort went into using raw nuts and grains to "look like" and "taste like" cooked food. After that initial experience, I read a few articles, browsed a few recipes, and determined that the raw food movement wasn't for me. Obviously eating a lot of raw vegetables and fruits is healthy, but, hey, isn't there a REASON why people started cooking food? It makes things digestible that might not otherwise be. It also makes things taste good. It eliminates some toxins and adulterants. Something tells me that an all-raw diet can have health pitfalls, same as anything else taken to an extreme. Wasn't there a book about a guy who died from toxins that built up after he ate lots of raw potatoes .... Anyway, that last paragraph is off-topic, so feel free to ignore it and certainly don't respond to it here (since I take it there's a thread on the general board about the merits of raw food in general). I wouldn't be averse to trying dinner at the new Karyn's, and I would love to hear reviews if others have eaten there, including more specific information about what is in these dishes. Lill Fri Jan 02 11:47:57 -0800 2004 623713 0 Lill 2 623850 Great review. I enjoyed reading this thoughtful account very much. Mon Jan 05 01:01:48 -0800 2004 623779 0 RST 2 623979 I keep getting the feeling that raw foods may be to "rough" to be fine cuisine. I wonder if Trotter's dishes suffer from the same problems of "grainy flavor." I have much faith in Trotter's abilities to meld flavors, but this book gave me a pause...At least to me, the usage of soy paste, and "sprouting and fermenting" legumes just seems to overpowering and "earthy" to be used successfully in fine dining. I hope awbrig answers, as I am interested as to his flavor impressions on the food. Wed Jan 07 01:38:47 -0800 2004 623779 0 Musigny 1 623827 If "raw food" is defined as unprocessed food in which the temperature is not allowed to reach 118 degrees fahrenheit, then I don't understand why uncooked animal flesh or products are not "raw food." The normal temperature of nearly all mammals is under 100 degrees fahrenheit; some birds go to about 104; fish and reptiles are usually less. Also, as long as processing is limited to cutting and chopping, then it's the same as for nuts, etc. Anyone for sushi? Sat Jan 03 16:49:59 -0800 2004 623713 0 George R 2 623980 Since I am not a raw foodist, I can't give you the party line, but I can guess...It seems that raw foods is just another out spurt of veganism...one which precludes use of animals or animal products. I can elaborate, but I have a feeling that it might not fit in this forum. Perhaps we can move this to the general forum? Wed Jan 07 01:42:16 -0800 2004 623827 0 Musigny