114384 Thu Dec 04 14:12:35 -0800 2003 14 7 Chicago Area 0 622488 I mentioned last week that I was going to post on the entire range of amazing Vietnamese herbs and vegetables available at Tai Nam but have not been able to get to it yet (it has been really hectic). For now, I just want to write a quick post on an amazing variety of Asian greens that deserves to be better known by the Chicago community. Tai Nam lists it on the label as "Tan O". A Cantonese woman who was also shopping at Tai Nam the last time I was there and whom I started a conversation with called it Tung Ho. I learned later that this variety of greens is also widely enjoyed in Northern China and is called (in Mandarin) Tung Hao. "Tan O" is Chrysanthemum coronarium, which we also know from our Chicago-Korean groceries and restaurants as ssukgat (also sookgat, ssukat etc). Most of us have eaten this without knowing it, either lightly-pickled and served as a panchan selection or on top of Korean one-dish soups. Because the herb becomes increasingly bitter through long contact with heat, it is usually added at the last moment, just before serving i.e. simply "wilted" almost as a kind of garnish. I was at San Chae Dolsot a few days ago and found a sprig of ssukgat floating on top of my codfish soup (Dae Goo Mae Uhn Tang). A quick visit to Arirang confirmed that beautiful bunches of this vegetable are also available from a Korean source/grocery in this season. In the English literature on Korean cuisine, ssukgat is usually translated as "crown daisy". In the literature on Chinese cuisine, this edible variety of chrysanthemum is simply called "chrysanthemum greens" or "garland chrysanthemum". I have also seen tantalizing references (in seed company catalogues) to "chop suey greens". Could it be possible that this vegetable was once the chief type of greens used for this dish in the region of the country (wherever that might be) where the words "chop suey" first came into popularity? The Japanese know this as shungiku (and sometimes also kikuna). I have done a search on this website using all the different possible names and spellings and came up with only two references-both to intriguing ways the Japanese use this herb in their cooking. The first is in a post on Tanto in San Francisco where the poster mentioned that shungiku is used here in combination with kinoko mushroom (www.chowhound.com/california/boards/sanfrancisco9/messages/39260.html). The second reference is on a post about a restaurant in Tokyo (chowhound.com/boards/intl/messages/9244.html): Shungiku & anpokaki no shiroae- a cold dish of persimmons and chrysanthemum with sesame and hot peppers. A wonderful combination of flavors! I was told by a friend who is familiar with Japanese cooking, that the Japanese use it (as above) in aemono (cold salad) type dishes or simply "wilted" into "hot pot" (nabemono) type dishes (shabu-shabu etc). The Japanese sometimes use the tiny flowers as well which may also be found floating in sake as garnish. From what I understand from chatting with various fellow-shoppers at Tai Nam, the greens (if still tender) are usually simply dressed (w/ a soy-sesame dressing for instance) and served raw (at least by the Vietnamese). The Cantonese would blanch the green quickly first or stir-fry with garlic or add to a hot pot. A large bunch of these greens at Tai Nam costed me about $2. It is a very beautiful vegetable with deeply-lobed pale leaves which turn a dark green upon contact with hot water. It is a pungent, bitter green, with just a hint of astringency. I am munching on a sprig right now (2 days later) and do not find that same slightly tannic quality which has been replaced by a slightly "salty" tang on the finish. It's a great vegetable to get to know and I suspect that we will hear more about it in the coming years. Tai Nam Grocery 4925 N. Broadway (773) 275-5666 Arirang Supermarket 4017 W. Lawrence (773) 777-2400 And here's a list of the herbs available at Tai Nam 2 nights ago. I'll get to each of them one by one when I find the time: *Dap Ca (spelled Dap Ca on the label but I also hear "Map Ca") *Tia To (they tranlaste this as mint but Tia To actually refers to perilla) *Ngo Om (Rice-paddy herb) *Rau Ram (now much seen in French haute cuisine, Michel Bras grows this in Aubrac, Grant Achatz uses this herb for one of his desserts at Trio) *Ngo Rai or Ngo Gai (often seen as garnish for pho; the saw-tooth herb) *Hun Lui (this is still a mystery to me!) *Rau Que (Southeast Asian Basil) *Rau Mong Toi *La Lop (Betel) *Kaffir lime leaves *Rau Ma (pennywort) (I adore an infusion of pennywort. Apparently, the Vietnamese also stir-fry this) And greens: *Tan O *Rau Long (sp?) "yam" leaf *Dot Dau (peapod tips/shoots) *Rau Muong (On choy/hong hsin tsai) *watercress/shen choy/diff varieties of mustard greens + lemongrass, banana blossoms, shredded fresh green papaya, fresh water chestnuts, chive flowers, chive shoots, fresh bamboo shoot tips, etc I also found packs of dok kea flowers (discussed on the board before) which the Vietnamese call "Bong Soi Dua" (More on other non-produce discoveries at Tai Nam on another post) RST Richard Thu Dec 04 14:12:35 -0800 2003 0 RST 1 622503 Were there flowers on it? The fact that it is both referred to as Chrysanthemum and Daisy makes me wonder if it is not a relative to the common Tansy, which makes a nice, astringent tea. Thu Dec 04 17:08:10 -0800 2003 622488 0 annieb 2 622549 Tanaisie (tansy), the Herbe St Marie (costmary) and other herbs/flowers from genera (Tanacetum etc) closely related to the Chrysanthemum genus are also now being rediscovered for haute cuisine by great contemporary French chefs like Michel Bras, Veyrat, Loubet, Pierre Gagnaire. No, there were no flowers on these. Apparently the leaves turn bitterer when the plant starts to bud. Incidentally the two Japanese names shungiku and kikuna correspond to the kanji characters: shun (spring/Chinese tsun) + kiku (chrysanthemum = Chinese chhu) Kiku (chrysanthemum/Chinese chhu) + na (leaves) Fri Dec 05 09:37:39 -0800 2003 622503 0 RST 3 622590 RST: Thanks for posting this. I've been meaning to buy some tung ho ("winter oyster") for the past few years but keep forgetting when it is in season, and so, invariably let the opportunity slip by. I stopped in Tai Nam yesterday to pick some up. As usual, your post is erudite and well-researched. I thought I might add some links that provide some marginal info: An entry re: tung ho in an Aussie Asian veggie database -- you may have already discovered this site, but it's an invaluable resource for me http://www.nre.vic.gov.au/trade/asiaveg/thes-27.htm I was also intrigued by your mention of perilla ("Tia To"), which I have hitherto never espied at Tai Nam. If memory serves (usually, rather poorly), I enjoyed perilla in Thailand where it is served atop a raw oyster with a dab of chili garlic sauce and a few curls of fried garlic. Heavenly. This is my preferred way of enjoying raw oysters. I'd only spotted perilla before at Hoa Nam (which I think also has good produce section). Unless I'm mistaken, perilla looks like an uncurled fern frond. Link: http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=18381&st=30&#entry335540 Fri Dec 05 15:47:52 -0800 2003 622549 0 titus wong 4 622591 Whoops. Never mind what I said about perilla. I just looked it up in the website that I posted. It's not the same veggie I recall. Guess, that particular veggie will remain a mystery. Boy, is my face red. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming. Fri Dec 05 16:14:33 -0800 2003 622590 0 titus wong 5 622625 Titus, I'm the red-faced one bec Hun Lui (which I called a "mystery", above) turns out to be one of the many "alternative" names for mint. I'll do some more digging and try to find out which cultivar this name actually refers to (the Vietnamese recognize several types of mint). Tia To is related to shiso which is commonly used in sushi houses/Japanese restaurants. I am sure that you have tasted it. They are two different cultivars of Perilla. In fact (I have to recheck) I think that they are both "Perilla frutescens" although Tia To is larger-leaved and has a beautiful purple color. I find the flavor of Tia To to be "bigger", more extravagant compared to the finer, more laser-focused, sharper profile of the shiso. I found Tia To leaves on my plate of garnishes for Bun Bo Hue Dong Ba at Ba Mien (Vietnamese Food Court). At Pho Xe Lua (which is also fastidious about bringing out specific assortment of herbs for each specific dish), I think that I saw Tia To offered for the chao vit (duck congee) but I need to recheck that. The Japanese also use a purple kind of shiso but it's not the same as Tia To. At Korean restaurants, when you are told that a certain herb you are enjoying is called kkaennip, you will also immediately be told that it is "sesame" leaves. In fact, kkaennip is also Perilla. Fermented kkaennip is one of my favorite "kimchees". The leaves take on a certain "leathery" texture upon fermentation; the flavor turns bold, earthy, "tobaccoey", profoundly savoury. I think that kkaennip is one of the many herbs that go into the magnificent Yumso Tang (Black Goat Soup) at Da Rae Jang. Do you have a story to tell about how chrysanthemum greens got the name of "winter oysters"? Did you see the amaranth leaves at Tai Nam as well? I think that these leaves correspond to the names shen choy/rau deng. How about the so-called "yam leaves" (rau long sp?)//have you used them in any way? One of these days, I am going to have someone on Argyle stir-fry a bag of pennywort for me. RST Sat Dec 06 16:21:51 -0800 2003 622591 0 RST 6 622709 I must apologize for the tardiness of this reply -- I'm currently "in between" ISPs at the moment, and so, can only access the Internet at work as time permits. Mon Dec 08 13:29:14 -0800 2003 622625 0 titus wong 7 622717 Ack, I posted that last fragment accidentally -- sorry! It takes me a while to get it together on Mondays. Anyway, I've never prepared amaranth before, so my experience with the vegetable has been confined to longing glances, and a murmured promise of "someday." As for the sweet potato leaves however, my mom told me that they have become somewhat trendy fare in Taipei. Since she is an inexpert cook, I took it upon myself to experiment and discovered that they are extremely delicate and apt to wilt like spinach in a stir-fry. They do taste sweetish but there is also a vaguely aromatic savor to them, reminiscent of tea. When I stopped in Tai Nam, I observed an African woman combing through the bunches of sweet potato leaves. I quizzed her on modes of preparation and her sole response was: "Yes, we cook the whole thing." (I think language was an issue here) Taking her advice on faith, I proceeded to dump the entire bunch into my wok, and found out, much to my dismay, that the stems are tough and fibrous, requiring pruning beforehand. Nevertheless, I have made stir-fried sweet potato leaves a few times since that first disastrous effort and have to report that they are DELICIOUS. Foodies everywhere should make the effort to prepare them. Although I am a neophyte, I prepare them much the same way as one would saute broccoli rapini -- oil, garlic, little salt, and perhaps a wee drop of sherry/xiaoxing wine. Apart from prepping them, it takes very little time to cook them. I am unaware of any restaurant in Chicago that serves sweet potato leaves (though Penang sounds a likely culprit) and would be delighted to learn of any. BTW, I'm sorry my information is mostly anecdotal, but I don't possses the encyclopedic knowledge of food history that you seem to have at your fingertips. Mon Dec 08 14:08:20 -0800 2003 622709 0 titus wong 8 622769 Well, I hope I got some of it right. I pulled a lot of that stuff about perilla out of my head without rechecking. Could you ask your mother what "sweet potato" leaves are called in Chinese so that we can be sure that we are talking about the same thing? Is this the "yam leaf" offered at Tai Nam? And talking of vegetables that the Taiwanese eat, do you know anything more about something called A-choy? (The Roman "A" is used in writing this out in Chinese). During the summer, it was available at a number of groceries on Wentworth. As for finding these at restaurants: yes, they are there, just simply not listed. One would have to ask what kind of greens are available. I suspect that places serving home-style food (ex: Ken Kee) would have one or two different types of greens available to do a simple stir-fry with, depending on what's in the market. Otherwise, one could always buy the bunch of one's choice at the store and have a place like Great Wall (in Chinatown) or Sun Wah (Argyle) cook it up. RST Tue Dec 09 00:25:13 -0800 2003 622717 0 RST 9 622782 Hey RST, long time no talk to! Through the wonder of Hot Posts and your use of the subject lines, sometimes these things catch my eye right after midnight EST before I scan down to the San Francisco section. (g) Here's a link to a discussion you might find interesting. If you follow the embedded links back to the San Francisco board, you'll find even more. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/293763#1608964 Tue Dec 09 02:59:21 -0800 2003 622769 0 Melanie Wong 9 622849 Perilla, or shiso leaves of at least two varieties are available from Shepherd's Seeds. They're remarkably easy to grow. I suspect that they are also available in many Asian markets in their seed displays. I usually drag myself away from those displays as my garden produce must try to please 6 households (everybody said they LOVED collard greens in April, but....) and the space is very limited. Half goes to tomatoes. For those with more space to experiment, the seed racks appear in Feb-March in all the Asian markets we discuss here, and while you can buy some of the same stuff from mainstream garden centers or online sources, it's a good opportunity to support these merchants, and perhaps to uncover something not available elsewhere. After all, winter is just not tolerable in Chicago without seed catalogs, and even leftover seeds :-) Tue Dec 09 22:11:23 -0800 2003 622769 0 annieb 10 622859 As you point out, perilla/shiso is very easy to grow. Last year a kindly Vietnamese gentleman told me, while we were digging through the herbs at Hoa Nam (1101 W Argyle), that sprigs of it can easily be rooted in a glass of water. Sure enough it works. I tried rooting 5 or 6 different Vietnamese herbs but only had success with perilla (the purplish herb with a square stem at Hoa Nam) and one other (can’t remember name). I suspect, with a moderately sunny window, one could have a supply of fresh perilla even during the upcoming Chicago winter. Wed Dec 10 00:31:09 -0800 2003 622849 0 Rene G 1 622515 Wish you had pictures! Last week I had, at a small roadside place abt an hour and a half outside of Saigon, "bahn che". The bahn are a variation of rice wrapper --- not paper-y like the ones that usually wrap salad rolls or imperial rolls, but slightly thicker, with the translucence of thick muslin, a little knubbly in texture like a rice cracker, halfway between soft and crunchy, about 8 inches in diameter. This is a do-it-yourself operation: papers are served with a plate of thinly sliced, fatty boiled beef or pork, a dish of pickled onion, garlic heads, carrot and radish (pungent pickles, not the mild slightly sweetish pickles you get with a bahn mi), dipping sauce of nuoc mam and chili and, most interestingly, a large platter heaped about half a foot high with a huge variety of herbs and leaves, most of which I've never seen before (and some of which may be on your list). Most memorable were a 5 to 6-inch long pale green leaf with a sour taste, and a frondy, dark green leaf with a musty taste. The proprietor told us that she collects most of them "by the river" and, as she demonstrated how to wrap the bahn into skinny rolls, she said that the former (I think she called it "rau som") should be eaten if one has back problems, and the latter if one has a scratchy throat. Unfortunately I didn't have a pen and paper so I couldn't make note of names of any of the other herbs, or their "uses". I took photos but the camera was set for black and white so they aren't very useful. The bahn che were delicious by the way, though I don't think the beef added much flavor. Also had a soup noodle called "bahn cahn" -- thick round rice noodles (as in bun bo Hue), pork, bean sprouts, and one of those unidentifiable herbs in a rich broth seasoned with lots of black pepper, and served with a dish of more black pepper and fish sauce for seasoning. It's supposed to be a specialty of the area around Tay Ninh. Thu Dec 04 21:15:00 -0800 2003 622488 0 foodfirst 2 622628 When I visted the great Sunday market of Chilapa, Guerrero last January, I sat down at the stall of one of the pozole specialists for the traditional Sunday morning bowl. (I was perverse: everyone was eating the traditional Sunday white pozole; I asked for pozole verde.) There were guaje pods strewn all over the communal table for seeds to munch on while waiting, as well as a huge "vase" full of all kinds of local herbs. I recognized piojito, two diff types of papaloquelite, an herb that looks similar to Mexican oregano etc. The "Indian" family sitting across from me (a shy young couple with a little son; the woman went barefoot) kindly showed me how to pluck off leaves to nibble and enjoy. Foodfirst, You need to write us an article about Southeast Asian herbs and have it published (perhaps in Saveur? or who knows, perhaps Ed Behr might be interested). You can be the Patience Gray ("Honey from a Weed") of our generation. RST Sat Dec 06 16:52:19 -0800 2003 622515 0 RST 1 623575 Kae-nip (perilla leaves) are also gorgeous in a Korean hae-mul dolsot bap (seafood bibimbap without the vegetables) with a rich kochuchang sauce. Absolutely divine. Tue Dec 23 15:41:29 -0800 2003 622488 0 Northbelle