113971 Mon Oct 20 12:17:17 -0700 2003 12 7 Chicago Area 0 619883 Hey Chowhounds, newbie here. Just got back a week ago from Alsace/Strasbourg, and had a dish in Strasbourg that I'm still dreaming about so I turn to you in despair. Was at a little place called Restaurant au pont du Corbeau, was one of those places so good that you tore up your vacation eating plans and went back three times. Woody old place where the Strasbourgeois eat, menu is all regional specialties. They had this one amazing dish they called jambonierre, which is a roasted ham hock. Doesn't sound especially appetizing, but it was slow-roasted to falling off the bone tenderness. Skin was perfectly browned to a crackle. All the fat and gristle had rendered off. Was like having an individual serving of an entire ham (hence, jambonierre). Little mustard & horseradish, choucroute & potatoes, just delicious. The only way you knew it was a hock instead of a ham was seeing the two fibula & tibula bones after you picked it clean. Anyone seen this on a bistro menu in Chicago, or know a butcher who sells unsmoked, unadulterated hocks? I asked my butcher for regular hocks this weekend, and you would've thought I'd asked him for bat lungs. If I can't find it on a menu I'd like to at least take a shot at recreating it at home. Thanks in advance, Peter Mon Oct 20 12:17:17 -0700 2003 0 Peter 1 619885 Hey Peter, I lived in Strasbourg for a while, and so have been on the lookout for Alsation joints in Chicago. Brasserie Jo is allegedly Alsatian, but the last time I was there, you could have fooled me -- aside from choucroute garnie and pate, there was very little on the menu that carried the Strasbourgeois smack. I seem to remember the "crow's points." My favorite at the time was L'Ancien Douan (I remember my initial and intense disappointment when I was served pate foie gras -- "That's it! Braunschweiger!" I was a dumb kid). So, sorry to say, I've got no leads for you regarding jambonierre (ditto, bat lungs), but I'll be checking this thread to see if anyone else chimes in. David Mon Oct 20 12:43:53 -0700 2003 619883 0 David Hammond 2 619887 Brasserie Jo is expensive and mediocre, bad combination. Too bad, Alsatian food is perfect for the Chicago fall and winter. Nothing like tucking into a big plate of steaming pork on a cold day. And why does every restaurant pour those disgustingly sweet Rieslings by the glass in Chicago? You ask most people here if they like Riesling and immediately they scowl and go, "Ugh, too sweet" - most have no idea how delicious a decent one is. Maybe it doesn't travel well? Mon Oct 20 13:23:32 -0700 2003 619885 0 Peter 3 619890 As for the disgustingly sweet Rieslings...many Rieslings are very sweet, that's the nature of the grape. And especially the Spatlese and Auslese, not to mention the honey-like dessert wines... If you're looking for a "flintier" Riesling, then Kabinett is drier, but still very fruity. Also, there's very serviceable rieslings coming from California and Washington these days. In 1998 a $7 bottle of 1997 Fetzer Riesling won the Cali State Fair "grand champion award" as the single best wine at the judging out of over 2,000 bottles ! I managed to get a case at Sam's and still have one bottle left, it is fantastic. Also had good Rieslings from Washington state. Also, it depends on what you're matching the riesling with as to whether the sweetness is appropriate for the food or not. A sweet white wine is VERY appropriate with Hot Spicy food (like Thai and other spicy asian dishes) AND with highly spiced meats like German sausages. As for German wine travelling well, it travels fantastic. The last great vintage being 2001. I've yet to have a bad bottle of 2001 German anything...even the lower-shelf stuff. You want to stock your wineracks with plenty of 2001's while they are still readily available. As for matching with your Alsatian dish, a Gewurztraminer would be a very interesting match as well as Riesling. The Gewurz will tend to be somewhat less sweet and a bit "spicier". The problem with Gewurz is the quality is much less even than Riesling, but when Gewurz is good it's a memorable wine. Mon Oct 20 13:58:00 -0700 2003 619887 0 Chicago Mike 4 619894 I should have been more specific - I did not mean to imply that there is no good Riesling to be had. Au contraire, I think it's a fantastic grape. The problem lies in the bottles that our restaurants are selecting for their house pour. Someone not familiar with the wine and feeling adventurous is most likely to get their first taste of it, by the glass, at a restaurant. The house Rieslings that they're pouring in Chicago restaurants are doing a disservice to this wine. Especially when the cost per glass is $8 or $9 for anything nowadays, they should at least select a decent bottle for their by-the-glass pours. Mon Oct 20 14:18:38 -0700 2003 619890 0 Peter 5 619961 As this community prides itself on an interest, not to say fanaticism, regarding attention to detail, I thought it might be useful to try to clarify some of the Riesling conversation above. For whoever is interested: Riesling is indeed a fantastic grape. The center of the Riesling universe is Germany, which is why the topic easlily slid that way after being introduced vis a vis Alsace. That said, Riesling is produced beautifully in Alsace in very crisp, flavorful, dry versions that, not surprisingly, go wonderfully with Alsatian food. Prominent Alsation growers are Zind-Humbrecht and Hugel et Fils, Schlumberger, Trimbach among many others. In Germany, though there is a recent fad for dry wines, Riesling reaches greatness as a powerful, perfectly balanced sweet wine. Germany makes life confusing by having very complex laws regarding labelling and nomenclature. Essentially, the top tier of German wines - those which are vinified without requiring additional sugar - are called Qualitatswein mit Pradikat. Within this top tier are rieslings, categorized by the ripeness of the grapes at harvest (and in general, the sweetness of the resulting wine). In ascending degrees of ripeness these are: Kabinett (lightest and usually driest; can be wonderfully balanced, subtle and marvelous to match with certain foods), Spatlese, Auslese, Beerenauslese, Trockenbeerenauslese. As to the question regarding the miserable quality of Rieslings poured in Chicago's bars and restaurants. I would guess that this relates to the fact that there are no laws in America governing the use of foreign wine terms. (Here, I am open to correction, but I believe this is so.) Hence, while French Champagne must come from that clearly and narrowly delineated region, in America, a Rhode Island winemaker could ferment liquified bat lungs and put the word "Champagne" on the label. Way back when, Riesling, in America, became a catch-all for flabby, insipid, slightly sweet wines of no character whatsoever, and bars would offer jug versions as a house pour to satisfy people who just wanted "a glass of white wine." In this country the reputation and expectations for riesling has never really recovered from this once well-founded perception. Tue Oct 21 15:04:45 -0700 2003 619894 0 mrbarolo 6 619965 Bravo M. Barolo! Nicely done. Further info to eliminate confusion re the wonderful wines from this region of the world. A variety of grapes are grown here, and the ranking from driest to sweetest: Sylvaner Riesling Tokay Pinot Gris Gewürztraminer Muscat Spätlese/Eiswein/Trockenbeerenauslese/etc. (these may be from any of the above varieties, they're left on the vine until they start turning into raisins so to speak) If you find the Riesling's too cloying, try a Sylvaner. Someone mentioned already 2001 was a fine year in Europe for these varietals. Was on the Routes des Vins this fall in Alsace, and the vintners are very excited about this year. The extreme hot weather this summer has really concentrated the fruit, and 2003 could turn out to be an extraordinary year. Cheers! And I'll report back on the Hocks/Bat Lungs, thanks for the info folks. Peter Tue Oct 21 16:11:12 -0700 2003 619961 0 Peter 7 619967 Thanks for the heads-up on the 2003 wines. Something to look forward to. Tue Oct 21 16:45:41 -0700 2003 619965 0 mrbarolo 4 619946 Actually, I think the important point was made, and then run right by. The discussion started with Alsatian food and wine, then moved to German (German!) Rieslings, and American. In general, the good, crisp Rieslings are French, perhaps Austrian and even, these days, sometimes from New Zealand. The sweeter style is favored in Germany and the US (yes, there are drier German Rieslings, Auslese, isn't it? But even with them, you need to know the specific wine as dry can be very relative). So, while it is not guaranteed, if you want a drier Riesling, look for an A region and you get that slightly floral, slightly oily flavor. I once rented a bicycle in Alsace and spent the day wandering from winery to winery up hill and dale, enjoying the weather, country and conversation. The next day I returned to my favorites and stocked up for the flight home. I recommend it, though you need to be pretty comfortable on a bike as by the end of the day it becomes a new challenge in traffic. Gewurz is another matter altogether. I like it very much, part of my attraction to things over the top, so floral, such a nose, such a flavor. While it is often grown in the same regions as Riesling, I would not really consider it a substitution for Riesling except for in the sweeter versions of each. I am in complete agreement with the other posters on Brasserie Jo - no go. And I like Everest just fine and want to have a good Alsatian bistro here, but every time it has disappointed. I have a wild idea for finding Jambonniere - call Mon Ami Gabi in Oakbrook and ask to speak with Jean Paul. Tell him what you are looking for and that an old fan from Montparnasse thought he might be able to suggest something. Or you could call Brasserie Jo and ask if they ever make it (but I would be wary of those results). Those would be the only ideas I have. Look forward to hearing if you have any success. d Tue Oct 21 07:37:18 -0700 2003 619890 0 dickson d 2 619926 I have yet to dine in Alsasce (once spent a night in Nancy), but I have had eaten many a plate of choucroute garni in Paris. Nearly my favorite thing to eat there. I always found it so discomforting that the choucroute at Brasserie Jo was so NOT like what I had in France. As to ham hocks, perhaps something closer can be found in Chicago. Berghoff does a very tasty boiled pig knuckle. And Smith and Wollensky does the, why no one ever thought of this before trick with them, deep frying the things. A meal only Dr. Atkins could truly love, but oh so good anyway, with their house made apple sauce. Rob Mon Oct 20 18:05:00 -0700 2003 619885 0 Vital Information 1 619948 Peter, Bat lung, man, you've got me stumped! But seriously, while Jambonierre in the style of Strasbourg my be difficult to find in Chicago, fresh, non-smoked, ham hocks are not. For starters fresh pork hocks, green (raw) not smoked, are fairly easy to find in Chicago, Hog Butcher for the World. Peoria Packing on Lake usually carries fresh pork hocks, I just called they have them today for .99c per pound, and many of the numerous Hispanic markets around town carry them as well. I would guess Moo and Oink, on the South Side, carries them on a regular basis, but you only get one phone call out of me. (smile) In the prepared hock category the only places I know of that serve fresh, not smoked, hocks are Smith and Wollensky, as Da Mayor, Vital Information stated, also Mike's Fried Chicken, a Filipino place on W Lawrence, and some of the Puerto Rican restaurants, La Palma for one, but these versions are all finished in the deep fryer. Mike's Fried Chicken, though it seems to have changed it's name to Isla Filipino, is justifiably famous for it's deep fried chicken, if you get the chicken make sure to order the whole chicken, it is prepared different than the chicken available by the piece, the deep fried pork hock, Crispy Pata, looks delicious. I say looks delicious as I have not tried the Mike's/Isla version of Crispy Pata (deep fried pork hock), the whole fried chicken is just so damn good, but I did take a picture of the Crispy Pata at an adjoining table one afternoon. It's not my best picture, I was taking a picture of a complete strangers lunch, but should give you a general idea of the pata. Enjoy and good luck finding bat lung, Gary La Palma 1340 N. Homan Ave. Chicago, IL 773-862-088 Isla Pilipina aka Mike's Fried Chicken 2501 W Lawrence Ave Unit D Chicago, IL. 773-271-2988 Peoria Packing 1300 W Lake St Chicago, IL 60607 312-738-1800 Crispy Pata at Isla Pilipina aka Mike's Fried Chicken Image: http://www.sptsb.com/Mike%20Pork%20Hock2.jpg Tue Oct 21 09:30:28 -0700 2003 619883 0 G Wiv 2 619959 Gary - awesome picture! That gives me a major food flashback. I was in Manila last year and asked my clients to take me to a real authentic Filipino restaurant. We went to a place in Makati, forget what it was called, but we had 8 people at the table and they brought out EVERYTHING on the menu. The dish in your photo I remember now as one of their major national dishes - they were oohing and aahing when the waiter brought it out. I wasn't asking too many questions about what I was eating, kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" meal blurred in with many cocktails. But they did tell me it was pork, and it was delicious. I remember it came out all brown and gnarly and crackly and scary-looking but it was mighty fine eating. It is also purported to have powerful aphrodisiac qualities if memory serves me correctly. Little did I know it was a hock, so here I am full circle. Thanks for the heads up on butchers, I'll have to swing by the Moo & Oink on Stony Island on my way to Michigan - Go Blue! Dickson, we did the Routes des Vins on this trip too - but in a car, not on a bike. Created your own personal winding road I'm sure! Totally agree, the Alsatian Rieslings are in general drier than the German. But we had some outstanding dry German Rieslings on the other side of the border too, a touch sweeter but not much. And people here on the board are confusing the grapes, this goes from driest to sweetest; Sylvaner Riesling Tokay Gewürtztraminer Muscat Spätlese/Eiswein/etc As mentioned, 2001 was an excellent year. But the Neuer Wein/Vin Nouvelle was just coming out. The vintners are very excited about this year's vintage, the extreme heat this summer has really concentrated the flavors. Too early to tell, but they think 2003 will be an outstanding year. Will pick up some hocks and roast 'em up, will report back with the verdict. Many thanks, Peter Tue Oct 21 13:44:33 -0700 2003 619948 0 Peter 3 619966 Peter wrote: "Thanks for the heads up on butchers, I'll have to swing by the Moo & Oink on Stony Island on my way to Michigan" (snip) == Peter, Fresh pork hock is not an item that is always in stock at Moo and Oink, or Peoria Packing for that matter, call first. Actually, out of curiosity, I just called the Stony Island Moo and Oink, no fresh hock, they said try the Madison St store. Call first, I would hate to send you on a wild hock chase. (smile) Enjoy, Gary Moo & Oink 4848 W Madison St Chicago, IL 773-287-1140 Moo & Oink Inc 8201 S Racine Ave Chicago, IL 773-723-4536 Moo & Oink Inc 7158 S Stony Island Ave Chicago, IL 773-493-7100 Tue Oct 21 16:34:58 -0700 2003 619959 0 G Wiv