113783 Fri Sep 26 11:46:58 -0700 2003 30 7 Chicago Area 0 618754 I'm relocating to Chicago soon, love to cook, and need referrals to great food shops. So far I know about Dirks for fish, Red Hen bakery for great bread, Fox & Obel, and Whole Foods. What other "must have" resources are there? Thanks. Fri Sep 26 11:46:58 -0700 2003 0 DanaK 1 618759 If asian is in your repetoire, shop Argyle St. (both the street itself between Sheridan and Broadway, as well as Broadway from Lawrence up to Argyle) for both foodstuffs and all types of appliances, utensils, tools, pots, pans, etc. Conte di Savoia for Italian things. (Though there are lots of good places and different people have their favorites). Paulina Market is meat mecca. A truly great butcher featuring many wonderful homemade sausages and wursts as well as smoked things. Fri Sep 26 12:50:01 -0700 2003 618754 0 MrBarolo 1 618770 A few chowhounds will tell you to flee Red Hen and head towards Medici in Hyde Park for great bread. Fox and Obel and Whole Foods are both overpriced and overhyped to my mind, I'd recommend finding a good ethnic grocery store in whatever neighborhood you're moving to. My favorites are the Berwyn Fruit Market and Caputo's, both at opposite ends of Harlem Ave. Surely, if you have the money to spend, Fox and Obel is a decent place, but most of us don't... You would likely do better to find a local butcher and mailorder all the specialty items (olive oils, vinegars, mustards, etc -- my recommendation is Zingerman's in Ann Arbor, they have a smaller but higher quality selection at lower prices) and a decent smaller wine store for wines, or even Binny's. The Cheese Stands Alone for high-end we-obsess-over-cheese types, and Caputo Cheese Market for i-love-cheese-but-have-a-tight-budget types. Plus, I have a vendetta against any grocery store in such a fancy neighborhood that you can only get free parking if you buy $5-$20 worth of goods. Yeesh. ($5 for 30 minutes of parking, $20 for 2 hours) anyway, rant mode off. -Ed Fri Sep 26 16:27:55 -0700 2003 618754 0 Ed Fisher 2 618781 If you're parking gripe is with Fox & Obel, gripe no more. They have experimented with various charges, but currently (and for quite some time) any purchase gets you 90 minutes of parking. Another recent thread inspired me to write a vigorous defense of Fox & Obel, but the inspiration wore off before I got around to it. Perhaps I still will some time. I'm surprised by much of the recent negativity about this place. It is expensive, and I have many quibbles, but my quibbles come from not meeting my ideal, a lofty standard I don't really expect anyone to meet. The truth is, Fox & Obel is unlike anything else Chicago has to offer and does a great job of offering some wonderful high-end products. I think any major food city should have something on that order, regardless of how frequently I might be able to shop it. I missed not having a Fox & Obel before it opened, and I would surely miss it if it were gone. Regarding bread, I haven't tried the Medici bakery, and I'm sure it's wonderful, but I'm a big fan of Fox & Obel's and it's a heck of a lot more convenient for me, and I suspect most others outside of Hyde Park. Fri Sep 26 17:57:27 -0700 2003 618770 0 Aaron D 3 618826 Fox & Obel is an index of our provincialism. It may or may not have the city's largest selection of high-quality (and high-priced) artisanal products packaged for consumerist-taste, but FETISHIZING it (as the food media does, week after week) as the only possible source of good food in the city blocks our way forward. Even before places like F & O or Julius Meinl open, the media finds itself already in the grips of all the public relations spin and in a state of consumerist bedazzlement. The Tribune or Chicago Magazine render such places tribute week after week by pretending that there are no other options, when in fact, the city is bursting with a million eating possibilities. So-called food-critics/food editors trip over each other to see who will be first to report that 900 people couldn't get in to the opening party of Japonais-as if the gastronomic life of this city hinged crucially on such an event. Rubrics such as "artisanality" "small-production" etc are coopted and abused as "validators" for high-priced goods when there is NO ONE in the Chicago food (and wine!) establishment today who can think and taste critically, independently to tell true artisanality apart. It is specially monstrous that the great return to artisanality (this great achievement of the past decades) should be appropriated to promote a certain "lifestyle". Chicago is being taught that the pleasure and enjoyment of food can only be attained through consumerism and the attainment of such a lifestyle. Trends from the coasts are embraced with great fanfare as if we needed to accept new forms after they are validated elsewhere. And as if we are incapable of discovering our own greatness from within and of shaping our own futurity. The map of the city is quietly redrawn following the footsteps of real estate interests. The representation of eating in this city is reshaped to focus on selected neighborhoods (Streeterville, Lincoln Park, Bucktown etc) and in alignment with those real estate values. The large chunk of the city is rendered mute and without symbolic representation. The great lie of the food establishment in the past 2 decades is that everything else not validated by this "lifestyle", and not within those "validated" neighborhoods is old-school, "Midwestern", not up to the "gourmet" standards etc. This: in a city brimming over with rich untold multifarious magnificent eating. Is it any wonder that the city has lost its tough-mindedness, its critical, can't-fool-me attitude, its great tradition of independent thinking. But going back to F & O. Have you been to one of the food emporiums in Manhattan? This place is a joke in comparison. And instead of constantly kicking its butt and forcing it to compete and improve, we act as if it were our salvation. Don't you cringe when you go in and see all those pre-cut plastic-wrapped "artisanal" cheeses? Even in your run-of-the-mill, old-school Italian delis in Boston, the standard for cheese-mongering is at least three wheels of Parmigiano Reggiano reflecting diff makers, provenances or seasons, cut to order. Does it truly help to drive the quality of our food life to keep harping on how convenient and how nice this place is and what nice things they have, instead of focusing a relentless critical eye on it? Sun Sep 28 13:56:01 -0700 2003 618781 0 RST 4 618830 Not too long ago, the senior arts/music critics of the Tribune banded together to write a carefully-argued denunciation of the results of the renovation of Orchestra Hall. The point here is not whether we agree with them or not. The point is that, in our civic discourse on music, we still have on the most prominent/visible level, a group of people who are not afraid (generally, not always) or who SEEM not to be afraid to take on the status quo and drive critical thought. When a conductor or the director of one of our arts institution retires, Chicago can still hope to expect from the Tribune a tough-minded summary of the career and an unsentimental analysis of how such and such a person has served the city. In architecture, the quite rich discourse in the city has been dynamized in the last years, on the level of "official" criticism, by the writings of people such as Lee Bey (formerly of Sun Times) and the Tribune's Blair Kamin. Everyone has been following the forceful stream of fearless criticism Blair Kamin has been churning out this year (and there is no doubt that he is up for a Pulitzer for this work.) Yet, in the world of food, we have nothing similar. No one in the food/wine establishment has the balls to break off from the pack, step forward and say "this is wrong!" No one dares step forward to say: Mr. P's (powerful wine distributor) wines is crap, stop kissing his a-- No one dares take on a famous chef against a prevailing opinion or a "trend" against the prevailing fad. No one can go out there and REALLY think and taste for oneself (instead of echoing and echoing public relations press releases and "spin"). It's time for a big change! R Sun Sep 28 15:39:58 -0700 2003 618826 0 RST 5 618852 Richard, You've whipped me to such a froth that I'm just gonna come out and say it... .I didn't enjoy my meal at Trio. Thanks. I feel better. ;) E.M. Mon Sep 29 10:55:39 -0700 2003 618830 0 Erik M. 5 618859 The "big change", RST, is you. And Zim Bida, Seth Zurer, Vital Information, etc. etc. A swarm of avid reporters with far broader/deeper/more current coverage than any critic can hope to achieve, and with an inclination to hype-averse irreverence. Several of our boards tend to lapse into "Our restaurant critics suck" threads. It's frustrating, because: 1. such rants don't help anyone eat better...they're just part of the personality cult foodie problem, rather than the eye-on-the-chow Chowhound solution. 2. they expand and get chatty (chat, as a quick surf of other Internet communities confirms, is The Enemy). You can make a much more defiant and penetrating statement on the state of local food criticism by TONIGHT going out and finding an amazing overlooked place, and using this forum to compare/contrastcomparing/contrasting to a famous/hyped place which lazy, shmoozy types assume to be the last word in its genre. Noticing problems is good. Pointing out problems to the world is good. SOLVING those problems yourself is infinitely more productive (but railing about a problem in a place devoted to solving it is a little counter-productive). ciao Mon Sep 29 12:27:43 -0700 2003 618830 0 Jim Leff 4 618857 Hear hear. You know, when I got here 12 years ago, I was amazed at the many neighborhood suasage makers and butchers, whether German, Lithuanian, Polish, Italian, etc. To the rest of the country, this kind of thing was typically Chicago, and a big joke -- a bunch of Bears fans worshiping Ditka and choking on brats/having heart failure. Now we get to hear about the incredible artisans on either coast with their own TV shows and branded kitchen tools who have "re-discovered" the lost art of charcuterie and blessed America with its wonders. A bunch of crap, if you ask me. Why aren't the writers flocking to Paulina et al. to pay homage? BTW, hasn't Kahan at Blackbird served house made suasages, cured meats, and pates from day one? Mon Sep 29 12:17:28 -0700 2003 618826 0 JeffB 3 618833 I'm with you Aaron. Granted, it has been a while since I have been to Fox and Obel, and I need to do a more current examination, I find the attacks way overboard. I have published on this board both praise and criticisim of F&O. In the end, I have been mostly pleased with the place. Is Fox perfect? Do I think Zabars is perfect, or Fairway or Dean & Deluca (hardly!) or Sutton Place Gourmet (my old college employer). I am sure even Zingerman's has some faults. So, let us not measure strictly by a standard of perfection. Let's measure by what Fox and Obel does extremely well. A fantastic pastry kitchen that turns out both breads and cakes in equal qualities of glory. A deli section like nothing else in this city, with staff that will sell you the most minimal quantities, all lovingly wrapped. Chocolates and other goodies nearly too good to eat. One day, after thanksgiving dinner at the bungalow, I will serve a range of these fancy foods. I have never tried the meats or fish at Fox and Obel, but my eyes always tell me these are the highest of quality material. This looks like meat worth spending money for. Likewise, I have hardly sampled any of the pepared goods, but again, they always at least look good. I mean, compare Fox and Obel to Mitsuwa, a place nearly everyone likes. Yet, Fox has fancier meats, more deli, fish as fresh, superior bread and a more interesting produce section. Would anyone knock Mitsuwa because it beat Mitsuwa like that. I promise to get to Fox and Obel within the next week for an update. Until then, I stand with Aaron! Rob Sun Sep 28 19:34:05 -0700 2003 618781 0 Vital Information 4 618834 A couple of months ago I needed three or four very specific upscale ingredients, along with fruits, veggies and bread, for a dinner I was putting together. Pressed for time, and thinking I could get everything I needed in one fell swoop, I went to F & O, no such luck. I went directly from F & O to Whole Foods at 30 W Huron and was shocked, yes shocked, at the difference in, well, in everything. Whole Foods was lighter, as in when you walked in you got a feeling of space, clean well managed space The produce section was huge in comparison with a larger, and fresher, selection of each item. I repurchased four or five things I had already bought at F & O. Whole Foods was buzzing with people, whereas F & O had customers, but no energy. Speaking of no energy, F & O's staff, which seemed ok to me when I was there, were operating at half the speed of Whole Foods, with the exception of the deli counter, I always have good luck with the tall thin(ish) fellow who sells the prosciutto, salami, gravlax etc. at F & O. Please do not take this as F & O bashing, I like F & O and think it should be an arrow in every Chicago foodie's quiver, but, like I said, was startled at just how poorly it held up on a 1-1 basis with WF on Huron. Enjoy, Gary Sun Sep 28 20:12:49 -0700 2003 618833 0 G Wiv 5 618836 Wiv, I think you bring up an excellent point. Nearly every time I have wandered about F&O, I notice the exact same lack of energy. In fact, I believe that lack of energy, especially when compared to a real powerhouse like Zabar's, is exactly the component missing when people trash F&O. I have commented before about F&O, that it would help them greatly if they could mix in their snooty fare with utter bargains, essentially the way Zabar's does. That buzz could get created by $9.99 prime steaks or $3/lb exotic coffee. Hell, even if F&O just paid shills to take up space, the place would seem more fun if it had more energy. I really wonder how F&O can survive. I do not believe their is a population in Chicago, like say London or NYC that wants to use a gourmet store as their daily supermarket. As this thread has shown, the place also has a hard time appealing to a broad swath of local foodies. I do think, however, that its demise would be our loss. Again, good point. rg Sun Sep 28 20:59:45 -0700 2003 618834 0 Vital Information 6 618838 "I do not believe their is a population in Chicago, like say London or NYC that wants to use a gourmet store as their daily supermarket." I guess they think there is in those apartment buildings right there (ie Lakepoint Tower), which if you've ever visited really feel cut off from the city and are doubtless grateful for F&O. Sun Sep 28 21:13:25 -0700 2003 618836 0 Mike G 7 618856 IMO, Fox & Obel is absolutely in the wrong place, the wrong neighborhood, the wrong, horrible building. I'm surprised it has lasted this long. If it were somewhere on Clybourn, it would be a chain by now. On the other hand, in a neighborhood where just about anything can thrive, good or not, has anyone been to the new "gourmet" grocery and cafe on the rapidly changing Southport strip? It's on the west side, south of Addison, not far from the unopened Belgian Australian Ice Cream place and Julius Meinl. (Which consulting firm sold the high end European places on Wrigleyville as the place to open?) Mon Sep 29 12:01:23 -0700 2003 618838 0 JeffB 6 618843 Rob, Maybe that's it, lack of energy, because there does seem to be some essential component missing from F &O. I like the place, but, for some reason, I feel that I should like it more than I actually do. I'm not sure if the above really makes sense, but, as you said, it would be a loss if F & O went out of business so maybe that is where my feeling of wanting to be more enthused comes from. The other negative, and this is a sweeping generalization based on casual observation from my sporadic F & O visits, is that they seem to be dumbing down the staff interaction with customers, or maybe just dumbing down the staff. When F & O first opened my favorite Chicago cheese maven, Danny Ray Sullins, was at the helm of that department. Now, though I am sure that someone in the store is cheese knowledgeable, the typical cheese counter person reads the back of tag in answer to specific product questions. Once again, please don't misconstrue this as F & O bashing, I like the place, I really do, just not as much as I would like. Enjoy, Gary Sun Sep 28 22:49:04 -0700 2003 618836 0 G Wiv 7 618846 sorry to hear that danny ray sullivan has left F&O. they lured him away from the huron whole foods and he was a terrific resource in both places. do you or anyone know where he is now?? joan Sun Sep 28 23:27:19 -0700 2003 618843 0 joan 7 618849 It is an interesting note, that a high-profile "steal" has since left the fold. Surely, if someone was willing to run once, they'd run again, but I think this may also point to deeper issues at F&O. I've heard "rumors" about F&O for ages, including one that either F or O is out of the picture. There have to be financial issues with the company. And it has to produce a kind of vicious circle. Less sales=less high priced staff=less service=less sales, etc. One thing that struck me originally about F&O was how over capitalized the place was. Not just a fancy logo printed on fancy paper with fancy ink, but the logo was everywhere. Private label spices. Expensive paper boxes to house deli meats. F&O looked like money (and not in the Swingers sense). As I have said before, like in this thread, I wish they'd have spent their money a bit differently. Instead of putting so much towards the look of the place, how about putting more into the buzz? Mon Sep 29 07:15:07 -0700 2003 618843 0 Vital Information 4 618865 Ahh, fond memories of Sutton Place, a gourmet shop in DC on which I cut my teeth. Though to weigh in on the subject at hand, I too think that there are many fine things about the store. Yet, it has long way to go in many respects. My main complaint is with produce department. Yes, you can some fine and unusual items, like some delicious pea shoots I purchased this spring. For the most part, however, it is not up to snuff. Many items look a bit bruised, battered and worn. This problem is in all likelihood a function of its locale and the inherernt perishable nature of produce. It is unfortunately the first department people encounter when they enter the store. Now on the other hand, your eye, Rob, is correct on the meats, which are superb, better than even my beloved Paulina. My husband and I served an aged tenderloin a few weeks ago. Tenderloin is not one of my favorite cuts as it often lacks in flavor - not this one. Yes, their meat is expensive and no it's not aged as long as Lobel's in New York, but for a splurge, it's truly delicious. Mon Sep 29 13:19:52 -0700 2003 618833 0 MAG 4 618909 The current strategy of the food establishment is to maintain this fiction that good eating is available only in certain exclusive enclaves (and they will make insinuations with words like "safe" "hygienic" to protect these limits) and only to those who can pay a certain price. This is not the way to create the "buzz". Instead of trying to build and solidify the broadest possible base of food knowledge, of passion, of savvy in the city, the food establishment hopes that there would large enough a critical mass of conventioneers, tourists and "lifestyle" consumers to drive the scene. But this strategy is not sustainable. Our enormous conventioneer and tourist business could evaporate overnight. The economy could turn worse. And we would be left with nothing. You only have to follow the discourse on food and wine in this city (in the media, on several Chicago food chat boards etc) to understand the sheer demoralization & the depths of cluelessness we have descended to. The way to create genuine "buzz" is not to bring in even more glamorous, even more expensive items (and then hire "shills" to create excitement as you suggest). It is not to impose from above but to create from below. The way is to go out there and force every Chicagoan (Mexicans, Poles, Chinese, fourth-generation Chicagoans, whatever) to step out of their circle of comfort and expand their horizons by a little bit. It is to encourage them to think critically, to ask questions, to want to know, to be curious, to demand the very best. It is to recognize achievement and good eating in any corner of the city and stop this pretense that food can be found only in those certain validated neighborhoods. It is to diversify and enrich the field of resources and to stop fetishizing one or two points of reference (as we do with Fox & Obel or Sam's). When a discourse keeps circling back to those one or two monolithic frames of reference, it is virtually impossible to see what is beyond. An immoveable ceiling is imposed to serve as the absolute standard of reference. It is only when we start pushing to see beyond that we begin to arrive at the truer picture as we have begun to do on this thread(well, yeah, the meat is good, but it is not aged as long as Lobel's; well yeah, the cheese section may not be tip-top because; well, yeah, the produce...) I would rather see 12 tiny wine stores in the city (even if half of them are weak) than one giant like Sam's. This builds multiple sources of knowledge and perspectives. Sam's has been in business over 2 decades now and Chicago can be proud to have in it one of the (if not the) largest wine store in the country. Has the discourse on wine improved one bit in these two decades during this period of Sam's predominance? I would also hurt very badly if Fox & Obel could not sustain itself and went under. But in a city strong in passion and knowledge, that would not matter. Because another such store-perhaps even better-would emerge. The "buzz" will come of its own. Richard Tue Sep 30 10:59:01 -0700 2003 618833 0 RST 5 618917 I think you're seeing the Riedel glass half empty: 1) While there are embarassments like that NY Times by Dennis Ray Wheaton warning people from venturing two feet beyond the approved part of Wicker Park, note that that was in an out of town paper (albeit one that should be read by people who should know how to handle themselves in potentially dicey neighborhoods). I suspect Dennis Ray Wheaton was edited pretty hard by the Times in that case. The actual local food press-- and who knows, but there's certainly reason to think we've pushed them a bit in this direction, given the way they seem to use stuff they find here-- has gotten better about expanding horizons and doing stories on ethnic food, farflung neighborhoods, etc., even as they serve the primary goal in many readers' minds of reviewing the new 3-star and 4-star places and telling them what's hot this instant. 2) We do have lots of good tiny wine stores. Maybe not 12 but I have had good experiences at The Wine Crier, Howard's, the one up in Lincoln Square whose name I can never remember... that's where my discourse circles back to, but there's no denying that Sam's is an impressive and worthy place, too. As for Fox & Obel, seems to me we have been having the critical discussion you want, and we do have the alternatives you wish for (Paulina for meat, Dirk's for fish, Cheese Stands Alone for cheese, etc.) Your ire would, I think, be much better directed at Whole Foods, which is far more dominant than F&O, or for that matter, Jewel and Dominick's, which are so lousy in many areas that Whole Foods (and Trader Joe's for that matter) could shine by raising the local level to passable. (They must think at Jewel I don't actually eat at home, just clean; all I ever buy there is cleaning supplies.) 3) Besides, all the really great artisanal sausage places are on Milwaukee in Niles. Tue Sep 30 11:47:30 -0700 2003 618909 0 Mike G 6 618922 Re: the local food press has gotten better Hmmm, copying is not the way to go. They need to push themselves and find stuff on their own and help with the database as well. But I agree that the Tribune is beginning to open up or seems to want to (note the piece on 75th last Friday). The Tribune can do so so much and make such a difference if it just wants to. The Reader? LLS is still hit-and-miss. Her choices are still very much geared towards the alterno-pick-up-the-Reader-at-a-Starbucks-crowd. Forget about New City: couldn't believe that their recent Best Of once again, for the umpteenth time, absolutely has to have an Bubble Tea category (just like Chicago magazine). In this city of a thousand possible food categories. And guess who won for the umpteenth time. And Sun-Times: did you see the recent article on best bars in the city (in this city of a thousand bars) listing virtually only Lincoln Park bars? Re: we do have lots of good tiny wine stores Agreed. But not enough. And the discourse keeps cricling AWAY from them towards the gravitational force-field of Sam's. I dislike Binny's a lot for personal reasons but think that it is ultimately good for the city that it has strengthened itself in a big way in recent years as a competitor. Re: we have been having a critical discussion and we have the alternatives... Yes. But not enough. There's still a lot of room to push. Re: ire No ire. I'm a sweet boy. Tue Sep 30 12:15:48 -0700 2003 618917 0 RST 7 618932 . . . Unfortunately, Binny's strengthened itself at the expense of a great local liquor store (not wine store), Zimmerman's. I miss Sam the Hat. Tue Sep 30 14:07:07 -0700 2003 618922 0 JeffB 8 619030 "I miss Sam the Hat." I think you mean Max the Hat. See how insidious the influence of our Wine Superstore is?! Wed Oct 01 19:20:37 -0700 2003 618932 0 Rene G 9 619035 That's two gaffes for me in 24 hours. Now I'm disrespecting the memory of Max the Hat Zimmerman, a real character if ever there was. I believe he might have tried everything in the place at least once. Thank you for catching that, Rene. BTW, Zimmerman's always had the obscure and profound beers and liquors, much more so than Binny's. They had four kinds of cachaca ten years ago, well before it was cool. Wed Oct 01 20:28:25 -0700 2003 619030 0 JeffB 10 619038 Plus they'd deliver to the city buildings. It was always nice to see the Zimmermann's guys with a full shopping cart of hooch for the City-County Building or the Daley Center. I think they'd also deliver to your boat if the order was decent sized. Wed Oct 01 22:09:12 -0700 2003 619035 0 Mike G 5 618928 Richard, I do not necessarily disagree with your points, but I think they are rather besides the point. The question is not whether Fox & Obel has meat as good as Lobel's, the question is how does F&O rank as a gourmet emporium. In other words, Zabar's is a pretty awesome store even if their meat is not as good as Lobel's either. (Likewise, the same can be said about Sam's. How is is as a wine superstore?) It is meaningless to say that Fox and Obel does not make sausage as good as some Polish deli on Milwaukee Ave. What is meaningful is to ask, what kind of place is Fox and Obel. If one has ever been to Zabar's, Peck's, the Harrod's Food Court, one knows how absolutely wonderful these places can be. The variety, the choices, the energy, the buzz. That Harrod's food court is my most favorite thing about London. This is what F&O shot for, to be talked about in the same language as the great gourmet stores, and the feeling was, why should not Chicago have such a store? Sadly, nearly all of us have found F&O failing by those standards, myself included. In the end, is not there anything valuable in the superstore? Sure, go ahead and find individual shops that are superior in some way--does Fouchon have the best cheese in Paris--it is the total package I want. Tue Sep 30 13:01:05 -0700 2003 618909 0 Vital Information 5 618941 Just to chime in on a couple of narrow points within the whole jeremiad: Hype and buzz are certainly as old as civilization. I'm sure as soon as the second commercial restaurant opened sometime in the late 18th century in Paris, there was buzz among the cogniscenti as to which was the one to be seen at, and I'm sure it was manipulated and not purely about the quality of the soup. There's always fashion and buzz and a new bar with a signature martini and a lot of models hanging out there. Ultimately, so what? I don't think it makes real sense to refer to the "food establishment" and their "strategy" as if they met in a smoke filled room and dictated what we get to eat year after year. Surely the press are a motley collection of variously qualified, ambitious or lazy, curious or complacent folks trying to make a deadline and a paycheck. So, oftentimes, coasting on a press release is the easy way to go. Doing another piece on a "trend" that's already tired gets the editor off your back, "discovering" something just a few blocks from your home saves some time. But that's individuals behaving fecklessly (or sometimes much better), not an "establishment" executing a "strategy." Yes, the major press (Tribune, S.T., Reader) are fairly close to hopeless, but then Chowhounds continue to find each other, spread the good word and grow and ultimately have an effect even on Metromix. Doesn't change always start on the fringe, and move toward the center where it also, inevitably, gets diluted as it moves in? But nonetheless, the mainstream continues to evolve because, it seems to me, of the pressure coming in from the outer edges. 30 years ago no one knew what balsamic vinegar or a sun dried tomato was. No one west of New Jersey would have dreamed of putting a squid in their mouths. Sushi was about as rarified and exotic as you could possibly get. Now all those things appear on the menus of chain restaurants in strip malls. They're also mostly mediocre examples of their kind. And that's how it goes. But those are macro cultural, economic dynamics at work. Not conspiracies. As to the Sam's example, and the question of whether their predominance has improved wine discourse: I can speak only anecdotally and personally. I learned to enjoy wine largely from contact with Howard when he was still there. He was gruff and passionate and opinionated and there were always some open bottles around. I learned about German Riesling, which no one was really talking about back then (mid-70s). I learned about how much flavor you could actually get into a $5 bottle of cotes du rhone. (Jacques Millar; haven't seen it in years.) I learned about $8 Cramant du Bourgogne that tasted a whole lot like Champagne, and Champagnes that were not mentioned on Ab. Fab. or on every glossy magazine's Christmas list (Jacquart, Selosse, Ayala, Joseph Perrier, Gosset, many others), I got sips of burgundies I could never afford, but could at least lodge in my taste memory as a point of reference. So,yes, to some extent Sam's certainly improved my wine discourse. In addition, there's the economics. It is undeniable that I can go to Sam's or Binny's and root around and find bargains that none of 12 tiny wine stores would ever have the purchasing power to create. Howard, in his new shop, does an excellent job of making sure he has interesting bottles to offer at every price point, but I still love the close-out table at Binny's where I recently picked up some terrific Barbera for next to nothing. I knew nothing about them, but at $6, I could afford to take the chance and pick up 3 different ones without worrying about it. Tasting 3 different Barbera's last weekend definitely improved my wine discourse. I love independent bookstores too, but the big chains do serve a not entirely inimical function simply by massing so much variety in one place and by discounting which allows me to read more. Hope this isn't too off-topic and/or incoherent. Just stream-of-consciousness response to a very engaging thread. Tue Sep 30 15:32:51 -0700 2003 618909 0 mrbarolo 1 618779 I agree with the poster who says Fox & Obel and WholeFoods are overpriced and overhyped. Here are my best recommendations: 1) Middle Eastern Grocery, Foster a couple of doors west of Clark, for any Middle Eastern deli such as kalamata olives, stuffed grape leaves, hummos, etc., also for rice, olive oil, nuts, and dates. They bake their own pita bread (It's usually still warm when you buy it) and make (fresh every day) their own spinach pies and felafel. 2) For produce, try the ethnic mama-and-papa places convenient to wherever you live until you find a good one. Failing that, commute to the North Water Market (2626 W Devon) for a wide variety of multi-ethnic produce. Also to Edgewater Produce (5509 N Clark) for Mexican cheese, chorizo, freshly-made tortillas, guava nectar in big cans, and Latino-type produce (and in winter months the owner is a genius at selecting his grapefruit). 3) For rye bread, babka, challah, and onion rolls go to the Tel Aviv Bakery (2944 W Devon). 5) For coffee cake go to Swedish Bakery (5348 N Clark) or Dinkel's (3329 N Lincoln). 6) For Asian, go to the strip mall on Broadway across from the Uptown Post Office and find the supermarket in the rear left-hand corner as you face the mall. They have the widest selection of Asian products. 7) For spices, basmati rice, dried legumes, naan bread, and frozen mango or pistachio kulfi go to Patel Brothers (2542 or 2610 W Devon, I mean the newly-remodeld big one). 8) For Polish deli and bakery places go to the strip along Milwaukee between Belmont and Diversey. Do not overlook Trader Joe's (see online for addresses) for the most interesting variety of frozen food. For wine and spirits go to Sam's on Marcey. In season, find your nearest farmers' market---all info is online. For ordinary stuff like staples and meat, watch the Wednesday Tribune for sale ads as Dominicks, Jewel, and Treasure Island get new shipments of good fresh stuff in for weekly sales. Congratulations on your return to the best of all food-shopping towns. If people eat it, we've got it. Fri Sep 26 17:53:06 -0700 2003 618754 0 N Tocus 2 618800 What a nice little compendium. Practically an FAQ for grocery shopping. Sat Sep 27 16:19:57 -0700 2003 618779 0 mrbarolo 1 618790 Dana - Relax. You're in a great food town. It's all good, ok? When you actually move here, post again to let us hounds know where you live, and we'll clue you in on where to go shopping. There are some definitive answers, in my eyes, and some lovely spots that I think are overlooked. Definitive: if you're on the north side, Paulina Meat Market is carinvore heaven. There's a very nice shopping run to be made on Lincoln Avenue: Whole Foods at Ashland/Lincoln/School; Paulina Meat Market at Lincoln a hair north of Roscoe; Trader Joe's at Lincon & Grace. Whole Foods usually has the best [albeit overpriced] produce around in the winter and spring [summer and fall you're best off going to a farmer's market - the papers will have a fairly complete rundown of those in the spring]; Paulina is, as I said, carnivore heaven; Trader Joe's is a fine resource for cheap wine, cheap cheese, and items that make good short-cut cooking eminantly [sp?] practical. [Avoid the stuffed turkey breast from TJ's. Truly horrible.] Argyle St. is a great area to go shopping for Oriental food products [if you're north side...on the south side, there's a good AND convenient grocery store for Chinese food that has BBQ, bakery, and Chinese grocery/produce all under one roof...with free parking!]. There are couple of good grocery stores in the NW burbs for Japanese [Mitsua in Arlington Heights can be easily found on the board], Harlem Ave. is a festival of Italian food, Milwaukee Ave. a great resource for Mexican & Polish food [I find it fun to drive on Milwakee & see it change from Mexican to Polish and then sort of mixed....and then there's the Korean/Buddhist vegetarian restaurant two blocks from a favortite hot dog stand...how Chicago]. So, as I said, let us know where you settle & what food you're looking for...aside from an apparent lack of Portugese groceries, we have a lot here. Fri Sep 26 22:17:37 -0700 2003 618754 0 Giovanna 1 620012 try the paulina meat market Tue Nov 04 13:23:36 -0800 2003 618754 0 Dave