112968 Fri Jun 13 00:30:40 -0700 2003 26 7 Chicago Area 0 614037 I don't usually post much at all but felt my experience today at Spoon Thai warranted it. I had never been there before and should have been at least a little concerned about the inability to communicate following the first phone conversation I had with them: Me: "How late are you open for lunch?" ST: "Oh...Uh...Mm" Me: "Hmmm...So how late are you open for lunch?" ST: "Oh...Uh...Mm...One more time" Me (slowly): "How late are you open for lunch?" ST: "Ok...ok...um...eleven" Me: "Oh, no. How late are you open for lunch? Not when do you open" ST: "Um...Mm...ok...bye bye" CLICK. Now, part of this and of the following can be written off to my own stupidity, I guess. Like, for example, I should have known, I guess, that unlike a lot of restaurants, ST doesn't take a break between lunch and dinner. Anyway, onwards... So three of us show up for what ends up being a series of variouls bunglings and miscommunications. First, I ask them repeatedly to bring the thai-language menu. They don't. Second, I ask them how much a number of dishes cost, considering neither their "Chicago Tribune Suggested" menu nor their daily specials list any prices. These questions are only greeted by blank stares from the waitress so I decide to forge ahead. After all, how expensive can it be? This was my first mistake. Third, after ordering a couple things for the group--the catfish salad, fish custard, lamb neek (or whatever its called), and crocadile--I stop, thinking that this is more than enough for myself, as a rather large guy, and my two petite female companions. I ask the waitress what she thinks. She responds by shaking her head and insisting I will need to order more. Guess the portions are small, I think to myself. Second mistake. "What would you suggest?" "This soup and the duck curry" "Ok, get us those." About ten minutes later a long procession of food begins. Outside of all you can eat buffets, I have NEVER seen that much food in front of me. I will be eating duck and crocadile for the next week. And, mind you, everything was excellent. The food was right on (strangely, I did think it could have been a bit spicier, though). As a sidenote, I might mention that I felt much more comfortable in the welcoming atmosphere of Thai Aree, but that's beside the point. So far, I was left quite pleased, everything was amazing. That is, until the waitress brought the bill--$71. After the 10% or so tip, which I probably should have omitted altogether, it was killer. I flipped, but realizing they wouldn't understand me anyway we just decided to take the leftovers and cut our losses. I have considered writing them a complaint letter, but they probably wouldn't understand that either. I'd write more about my impressions of the individual dishes here, but the bill suceeded in souring my experience. I will be hard pressed to ever find myself going there again... So, if you're reading this and thinking about going, try to learn from our mistakes so you won't be screwed Spoon Thai style. Peter Fri Jun 13 00:30:40 -0700 2003 0 Peter Borden 1 614040 Peter, sorry you did not enjoy your experience. However, I would consider it a plus that they overproduced off-menu items and excellent food for you. The language barrier I'm sure you know is endemic to many, if not most, chowhound destinations. The problem to me, is if I go to an ethnic place and get served the watered down, schaumburg stuff, despite my efforts for the opposite. That is what gets me really pissed off. At least this did not happen to you at Spoon. I must add that during my many visits to Spoon, I have never had more than a minor language problem. Anyway, I just wanted to put some support in for Spoon, although I understand your frustration. Regards, Jason Fri Jun 13 08:40:40 -0700 2003 614037 0 Ligament 2 614062 Peter, I'm running around today but just want to let you know that I'll try to print up your post and bring up the many different points in it with the owner. It may be that they are simply unaccustomed and overwhelmed by the barrage of attention brought on by the recent four-forks. I have not been here in a while and so do not know what the situation is like post-four-forks, but agree that since the city is taking the step to embrace them, they could also do a bit on their part to come half-way to meet the public. This might include finding the self-confidence to do completely away with a two-tier (gringo vs hound/secret) menu. This might include standardizing the menu, stabilizing it, reducing the number of confusing "specials" that need to be explained, clarifying prices etc. As Ligament pointed out, with these kinds of hound places, there is a lot of room for confusion and customer frustration. Maybe Wiv would like to come with me too and help to offer gentle criticisms to Wan Nah (if they are in fact merited)...? Richard Fri Jun 13 12:37:51 -0700 2003 614040 0 RST 3 614134 peter's experience at spoon thai reminds me quite a bit of the westernathon meal we had there. both VI and gwiv said afterward that after preordering some food for our large group the restaurant brought much more than expected. clearly their requests were not understood. i dont think its unreasonable to expect to have a meeting of the minds when you have a business relationship with someone. i dont believe that spoon thai tried to 'swindle' peter or the chowhounds, but i think RST is right in talking to the owner (who does speak english). i'm sure he doesnt want his customers going away unhappy. Fri Jun 13 21:54:14 -0700 2003 614062 0 joan 3 614161 I think it's a great idea to bring some of the concerns up with the owner (about menus, prices not being listed, and maybe langauge difficulties?) I know we would all like to see them continue to do well, and this could be very helpful to them. I personally, however, have been to Spoon a few times and have ordered take out once, and have not had language problems with the people there (especially the female owner(I think), whose English is very good). I asked about the prices on the specials list and was easily given a response, and was also given the Thai menu when I asked. I've been very pleased with the food, and have felt it has been *very* reasonably priced. Sat Jun 14 17:54:17 -0700 2003 614062 0 Aubergine 1 614095 Peter, I have written three replies to your Spoon Thai post, but am unable to get get the tone mild enough so it doesn't seem as if I'm trying to pick a fight with you. Suffice to say your Spoon Thai experience does not ring true with with me. I must commend Richard and Jason for their evenhanded response, try as I might I just can't fathom your negative Spoon Thai experience as anything but a direct reflection of an Ugly American attitude I had hoped was left behind with the start of the new millennium. Regards, Gary Fri Jun 13 15:40:05 -0700 2003 614037 0 G Wiv 2 614101 Gwiv and all, I am assuming, for his benefit, that Mr. Borden posted out of some frustration. I know there were a few times I wish email was delivered on 24 hour delay basis with the ability to retract. However, I am sure the board will do a just job of reminding everybody just how good Spoon Thai really is. (I STILL have not been). I don't have a problem with Mr. Borden sharing his opinion. After all opinions, as we all know, are like [insert anatomical reference] and everyone has one. But to have picked on a resturant touted regularly on this board as a "best of class" destination with a thinly veiled slam, leads one to think perhaps a hoax or borrowing of identity has occurred (see below), just to raise a stink. You ordered more food rather than starting with what you thought appropriate with the ability to order more later...upon reflection I hope Mr. Borden considers this as much his fault as theirs. My point, and there is one here, is that Mr. Borden, whether intentionally or not, has chastised the Chicago Tribune for giving high marks to a resturant that has not been totally Americanized. This should really stick in the craw of Chicago Chowhounds. I, for one, want to encourage the journalists of the local papers who read this board (and they do), to go out and find more chowhound-worthy establishments and give them high marks. I do agree with Mr. Borden on one point. I do wish that all resturants were required to state prices without having to ask. I have come to accept the practice (like most sheeple) and still go to resturants that offer specials without informing you of the price. However, try to avoid a second visit to those that offer specials priced significantly higher than other list-priced items. So much for my $.02 worth. pd Is this the same Peter Borden? Society for a Free Tibet apparently had zero members at the end of last year, and thus has been inactivated as an RSO. This year a first-year named Peter Borden is trying to reactivate the group and would appreciate your support if you're interested. Please send email with name and student id# to pborden@uchicago.edu. Doesn't seem like the "Ugly American Type" to me. Fri Jun 13 16:31:26 -0700 2003 614095 0 pdaane 2 614115 With various mild insults and "Ugly American" accusations flying, I'd like to clear the air a bit. First, I did post out of frustration--If my experience had been up to par with all of yours, I wouldn't have posted. The only other time I have reacted as such was when a noted Chicago steakhouse gave me food poisioning (we don't need to go into this here). And yes, I am still frustrated with my experience there and, in all honesty, with some of your replies. This is no 'thinly veiled slam' nor is it a hoax or identity theft (yes, this is the same pborden)--and just because my experince or my opinion clashes with yours is no reason to assume I'm making up a story to create controversy...in all honesty, I have better things to do with my time. Insofar as I have posted, what I feel, is a legitimate complaint, I felt some of your replies overreacted. I had hoped to voice my personal opinion on the service I experienced on one trip alone to Spoon Thai. Just because my experience is different than yours is no reason to get all huffy. Take it for what its worth: a warning. The moral of the story, the lesson learned, is as much for my own benefit as for yours. Yes, I should have gone with my gut and stuck to my initial order and seen how much food arrived. Yet, I trusted the waitress and perhaps that trust, as it turned out, was misguided. I made some mistakes in how I handled the situation, yet that does not absolve Spoon Thai's responsibility in the matter and, moreover, I would expect more from a restaurant that has received such high marks here. As for simply trying to undermine the reputation of Spoon Thai, or of the reviews in the Chic. Trib. or here, that was not my intent. I posted because I felt readers here should be aware that bad things can happen at such great restaurants. Moreover, except for the quantity (more on that in a bit) the food WAS excellent...the best Thai I've ever had in Chicago, hands down. That never was nor is it now the point I am contesting. I had a problem with the service alone. I am not insisting they speak English or Americanize their menu--I wouldn't dream of it. Just because I wish the service and communication was better does not imply that I want Spoon Thai to become McDonald's--its worth considering that Thai Aree somehow manages to provide absolutly exemplary service without becoming Americanized. As for MAG's suggestion that I shouldn't be too concerned about the price, I feel such suggestions are a bit misguided (no insult intended, MAG). My concerns revolved around the fact that I would not have spent that much had 1) the waitress not told me that wasn't enough and if 2) prices were available. Additionally, the $71 final bill purchased way too much food--I will be eating duck curry for the next week which, no matter how good, after a while in repitition starts to taste a bit old. I only complain about cost when it is unnessary, which it was in this case. I hope I haven't managed to incense too many more with this post. If it comes across too strong or, for that matter, if the original did, I apologize. Far and away the best thing I got at Spoon Thai for lunch yesterday were the lessons of those mistakes I'll never be making again. Spoon Thai DOES make great food and their service DOES need a little work (in my personal opinon). Please don't discredit my opinion just because I beg to disagree. Don't let these posts stop you from going either, just be cautious and know what to expect. Peter Fri Jun 13 18:02:43 -0700 2003 614095 0 Peter Borden 3 614116 Peter Thanks for clearing up the intentions of your post. It is unfortunate, mostly for the resturants themselves, that communication with "outsiders" is not a priority. However, I think that most of the chowhounds would agree -and I don't speak for them- that miscommunications sometimes add to the serendipitous experiences we crave. I am sorry your lessons came at such a steep price. Let me tell you about the appetizer special I ordered the other night.... Fri Jun 13 18:18:40 -0700 2003 614115 0 pdaane 3 614117 Peter, All well and good, but it is difficult not to react strongly to a post that has Swindled in the subject line and spends 8, of the first 12 lines, criticizing the person who answered the phones command of English, e.g. "Me (slowly): "How late are you open for lunch?". Regards, Gary Fri Jun 13 18:25:08 -0700 2003 614115 0 G Wiv 1 614103 I was at Spoon Thai a few weeks ago with another couple and our bill came to about the same total as yours. We were amazed that we were able to eat as much and as well for so little. So I am quite a bit surprised to hear you complain about cost. Fri Jun 13 16:33:57 -0700 2003 614037 0 MAG 1 614104 Seventy bucks for an awesome Thai meal for three doesn't seem like such a bad deal. Seems like you got in on the ground floor--that is, before the endless complaining from the locals corrupts the cooking. It might be for the best that they have a limited ability to communicate in English. Probably won't last, though. Fri Jun 13 16:41:12 -0700 2003 614037 0 flavrmeistr 2 614107 Have the locals actually been endlessly complaining. Bigger rubes than say, residents of Uptown or Logan Square? If so, I haven't noticed it. Fri Jun 13 16:49:58 -0700 2003 614104 0 annieb 3 614127 I didn't really mean "local" locals. Just Americans, mostly. A lot of Thai and Vietnamese restaurants in particular start out fabulous and then wind up being corrupted by the majority, who seem to favor fried stuff "not too spicy". It's a shame, but that seems to be who we are as a nation. Fri Jun 13 20:23:46 -0700 2003 614107 0 flavrmeistr 1 614141 Just got back from a dinner at Spoon. Went with The Wife and an out-of-town friend, and had: • Exploded Catfish • Catfish Custard • Preserved Duck Eggs • Pork Neck Larb • Sweet and Sour Soup • Sweet Rice with Mango • Taro Balls and Tea Ordered off the specials board (no prices listed) or at the waitron’s recommendation (she spoke English very well). Avoided the crocodile (I’ve had it several times in Florida, and felt I didn’t need to have it again). Total cost (with tax): $51.60 Overall assessment: Superb. The Wife and friend were knocked out, as was I, by the range of flavors, the quality of the ingredients, and the overall deliciousness of such relative novelties as the custard and the eggs. Peter, I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience at Spoon; I believe such experiences are atypical and avoidable. My recommendation: order a few dishes; see you how feel; order more if you have room. The dishes are reasonably priced, and you shouldn’t feel uncomfortable ordering from the list of specials, even when prices are not indicated. Having eaten Thai in Chicago since the mid-70's, I believe Spoon Thai currently offers the best Thai in the city -- much better than Arun's at a fraction of the cost. Sat Jun 14 01:54:06 -0700 2003 614037 0 David Hammond 2 614143 Them duck eggs are great aint they? Sat Jun 14 08:16:09 -0700 2003 614141 0 Ligament 3 614147 Lig, Yes, the preserved duck eggs were very tasty, and much more pleasingly presented than I recall they were at the Westernathon. Last night, they came arranged in a ring pattern, set upon carrot flowers, which were nestled in lettuce; everything was sprinkled with garlic (raw or perhaps lighltly pickled) and lime juice. The flavors and textures were very complimentary, and the eggs themselves were creamy and good (though not of colors normally associated with eggs: green and bluish yolk with translucent purple outer coating). Sat Jun 14 10:07:54 -0700 2003 614143 0 David Hammond 4 614164 Yeah, thats a combo I do not taste too often...creamy, gelatanous, followed by a blast of spice. Very unique and satisfying. regards, jason Sat Jun 14 19:41:21 -0700 2003 614147 0 Ligament 1 614182 Not residing in Chicago (but reading all the board's Thai food posts!) maybe I'm butting in here but just a couple dumb suggestions: (1) if prices aren't posted and you want to know, ask. This probably comes from living in Asia where you don't order *anything*, including a cab ride, without asking the price! But even in the US I wouldn't hesitate to say "How much is it?" or "So about how much is the bill so far (with the dishes we've ordered)"? Or, "We only want to spend about $50, are we there yet?" (2) don't ever count on wait staff to accurately judge your appetite. If I had a nickel for every time I asked "Do you think it's enough?", the response was "yes", and I was still hungry after dessert..... From most Asians' perspectives westerners eat alot, and the waitress probably was playing to this perception. (3) When you can't understand them and they can't understand you, smile and pantomime. Of course this doesn't work on the phone, but a staff person's problem with English shouldn't put a bad light on a meal before you even show up at the place. Sun Jun 15 22:17:43 -0700 2003 614037 0 foodfirst 2 614185 Foodfirst, I’d like to add a belated Thank You for all your efforts in translation. You have opened up a new world of great food to all of us. I am yet another fan of Spoon Thai (never had anything other than excellent service there) and realize that most of their best dishes come from the Thai menu. This was highlighted during a recent visit with a large group, some with dietary restrictions that eliminated a large portion of the menu. Overall the food was enjoyable though unexciting. One seafood dish and a noodle dish from the "regular" menu were really rather poor. Highlights were One Bite Salad and Catfish Curry Custard from the Thai menu. The custard even converted a couple of supposed catfish haters. I can’t wait to get back there to have another meal of all the "good stuff." Sun Jun 15 22:48:19 -0700 2003 614182 0 Rene G 3 614188 Thai food rules! and I am glad to help anyone move beyond the world of basic curry and phad thai (though both are beautiful things in and of themselves). Got a Cambodian restaurant in Chicago? I recently had the Cambodian version of the catfish curry custard (amok) and found I actually preferred it to the Thai version. A little lighter, a little less heavy on the coconut. But generally speaking, I'm a slave to Thai cuisine. Mon Jun 16 02:25:49 -0700 2003 614185 0 foodfirst 4 614203 Hi Foodfirst. As long as you are here, I wonder if you could i.d. the soup I ordered from Spoon yesterday to address a terrific hangover. I asked for a Thai soup off of the menu, using a description of a soup I saw in LA recently. They produced an incredibly complex, long-cooked beef soup with short, "broken" rice noodles. There were a few bite-sized pieces of lean beef, but the main ingredient seemed to be ground "variety meat(s)" of some kind. Liver, maybe kidney or blood based on texture and flavor. Also, lots of fermented beans, very small ones, not quite black. The broth was rich and hot with lots of allspice/clove/five spice(?). Some bitter greens lurked at the bottom. Great, thick earthy soup. The girl who took the order (pleasant and a perfect English speaker) could not tell me what it is called in Thai. True to form and Rene's observation, the guys at Spoon subtly punish anyone who orders the "American pan-Asian" stuff. Spoon's shui mai and eggrolls seem to come from a Chinatown freezer. (They came free w/ the delivery.) Speaking of pan-Asian, I caught the hangover at Ohba, where I had the whole striped bass deepfried and served with rock shrimp under a hoisin bbq sauce. One of the best fish I've had in some time. Olympia oysters and perhaps the best fries in town (Jap. sweet potatoes) were nice starters. Lots of good sake, I think, as well. Mon Jun 16 12:06:06 -0700 2003 614188 0 JeffB 5 614234 Wow, I'm stumped but it sounds like a *great* soup, similar (w/out the beans) to one I had in Cambodia. The fermented black beans and 5-spice make me think it's Chinese-Thai. Sure you can't get the name for this little bowl of heaven out of some staff there? I would love to hunt this one down at the source! Tue Jun 17 00:32:25 -0700 2003 614203 0 foodfirst 6 614267 Wow, now I'm really intrigued. Next time I go in, I'll quiz the owner. Given the large repertoire at Spoon, it might take some time. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks again. (BTW, looking around at recipes on the web, I'm leaning towards the idea that the soup's body came from curdled blood, as the ingredient seems common/not uncommon(?) in certain regional Thai. Tue Jun 17 14:15:21 -0700 2003 614234 0 JeffB 7 614309 Yep, that was my thought too. Blood shows up alot in northern/northeastern Thai food --- in laabs ("wet" laab), soups. OK, come to think of it, what you had might be khanom jeen naam ngiaw, which is either Yunnanese or Burmese Shan (there's some dispute) in origin (explains the fermented black beans). But in your case it was served with broken rice noodles rather than the fresh khanom jeen (very thin fermented rice noodles) which are hard to find in the States. When you find out, do report back! Tue Jun 17 22:42:39 -0700 2003 614267 0 foodfirst 2 614187 Hi! " When you can't understand them and they can't understand you, smile and pantomime. Of course this doesn't work on the phone, but a staff person's problem with English shouldn't put a bad light on a meal before you even show up at the place" I have often dealt with people where English is a Second Language in an environment where I was the only native English speaker. Additionally I was a guest in their country. They were speaking English to me as a courtesy because I could not begin to speak their language. When I find there is confusion or lack of comprehension, I slow my speach, I pronounce more carefully and I try to use simpler vocabulary. Pronounciation is especially essential as most foreigners learn the Queen's english in their home countries rather than the [better ;)] American accent. Remember there is a 20% difference in vocabulary between the Queen's and (the superior - my bias is showing!) American English, which is really quite substantial. My feeling our friend, when not well understood on the phone, got louder and probably spoke faster. Startling the restaurant employee and not necessarily adding clarity to the situation. Your 100% correct about asking how much. Point at the menu and say slowly, "how much?" or "Price?" or "cost?" Even people with poor english comprehension will understand what information is needed. A smile will help any situation where there is a language comprehension problem. You appear sympathetic to their situation and eager to try to overcome obsticles. Loud and haughty just doesn't cut it. Best regards, Cathy2 Sun Jun 15 23:33:15 -0700 2003 614182 0 Cathy2 1 614899 i've only been there once, and we had to ask three different people for our check (only after we waited twenty minutes from the time they cleared our table post-meal.) the first two women just smiled and nodded and wandered off without having understood a thing, and the third had me repeat what i was asking for several times before she understood. the food was great, but the service definitly leaves a lot to be desired. Mon Jun 30 18:55:01 -0700 2003 614037 0 ana