112826 Wed May 21 20:21:00 -0700 2003 19 7 Chicago Area 0 613171 After a shopping blitz of Caputo and Caputo Cheese (Caputo's is having an herb/vegetable plant/flower sale right now, lots of good italian plants for very reasonable prices), I decided to have the Harlo Grill and the River Forest Grill face off. The challenge: prepare me a double cheeseburger, fries, and a chocolate shake. The categories: Value, Burger quality, Fry quality, Shake quality. -- Harlo Grill is about 3 blocks west of the Caputo Cheese Market, so it's probably at North Ave. and 18th. It's open 24 hours every day, except from midnight Sunday to 5:30am monday. It will be closed on Memorial Day, and reopen at 5:30am Tuesday. I got a double cheeseburger, no onions, an order of fries, and a chocolate shake, to go. The total came to $5 even, although I suspect that was sort of a random figure decided by the woman working the counter. The listed prices were, I think: $2.40 for the cheeseburger, $0.95 for the fries, and $1.40 for the shake. I believe the woman working the counter (and the grill) was Mrs. Harlo. She worked the grill very well, and had a dozen sandwiches or so going when I arrived, most of them double or single cheeseburgers with onions. The rolls (S Rosen) were toasted on the grill as the burgers cooked. The burger patties and the fries were both pre-fab. Burger quality: Pretty gosh darned good. It had that subtle spice that you associate with a long-established burger joint. I don't know how to describe the flavor other than that. The bun didn't get destroyed by the burger or condiments (ketchup, mustard, pickle), and the condiments didn't overwhelm the flavor of the meat. A burger I would definitely have again. Fry quality: Decent. Nothing special, by any means. They were fried till thoroughly crispy and salted. I could have used more salt on them. I did not use ketchup at either Harlo or River Forest. The fries were consistent throughout the bag, but consistently just ok. Shake quality: Good. Thick, chocolatey, cold. -- River Forest Grill: Here, I have to admit, I fudged a bit. Rather than get a straight double cheeseburger, I got a Franke Special, so bacon was added. Many chowhounds already know the River Forest grill well, so I'll go into less detail. The total for my Franke Special with a chocolate shake (bacon double cheeseburger, fries, shake) was $7.50. The shake was about $2, the fries were about $2.50, and the burger was about $3.50. The amount of food was about the same, but the price was 50% higher than at Harlo. Burger quality: Good, wrapped in that unique roll (untoasted), topped with pickles, ketchup, mustard, and three full-length slices of bacon. It came packaged in wax paper which instantly turned translucent from grease. It didn't have the same old-school spice flavor in the meat that the Harlo burger had. The bacon added a nice porkiness and smokiness to the burger. It was a burger I would definitely have again, although perhaps without bacon. Fry quality: Again, prefabbed fries. These were more aggressively salted, especially the ones at the bottom of the bag. At the top of the bag the fries were very hot and a little overdone. The fries lower in the stack, though, were great. A little underdone, soft, salty, but not oily. Shake quality: The shake was virtually identical to the one from Harlo. I tasted no significant difference, good or bad. The shake was larger than the Harlo Grill shake, probably by 2 or 3 ounces. -- Winners: Value: Harlo Grill. At $5 for a double cheese, fries, and a shake, it's a pretty good deal. Burger Quality: Something of a tossup. I liked the flavor of the meat from Harlo, but I liked the overwhelming greasiness of the burger from RF. Both were greasy, but RF Grill's was much more so. I think I would choose the Harlo Grill burger in the future, though. I can't really explain why. Fry Quality: River Forest Grill. The top layer of fries could be tossed, but everything underneath them was really very good. The aggressive salting helped them a lot. Shake quality: Doesn't matter. Both tasted virtually identical. -- My choice for late night grub is Harlo Grill, unless you need a massive grease injection, in which case get all the burger you can handle at RF Grill. An alternative, if you're willing to pay $1.50 more than the RF Grill tab, is to order an Alehouse Burger from the Avenue Alehouse in Oak Park (on Oak Park avenue, just north of the Eisenhower). It's $8, topped with bleu cheese, french fried onions, and served with fries/chips on the side. It's a more substantial burger than either RF or Harlo, and has a wonderful taste, especially if you get it cooked medium or medium rare. The one big drawback is that they aren't open 24 hours like the North Avenue Grills :) -- Anyway, I think Harlo Grill is worth a shot. Another interesting side note, they had Canfield sodas on tap. It's been a long time since I've seen Canfield anywhere, let alone on tap. I'm filled with my grease quota for the day, or perhaps week, so I leave it up to the rest of you to revisit and critique Harlo Grill. Enjoy! -Ed Harlo Grill 2400 W. North Ave. Melrose Park, IL 60160 708-681-2585 River Forest Grill 7225 North Ave River Forest, IL 60305 (708) 366-9645 Wed May 21 20:21:00 -0700 2003 0 Ed Fisher 1 613175 One slightly disturbing thing about Harlo Grill I forgot to include in the original report: When I arrived and sat down, I had a clear view of a few dozen eggs, sitting beneath the service counter, unrefrigerated, waiting to be dropped on the grill for potential orders. So, if you worry about eggs being unrefrigerated, or you worry that unrefrigerated eggs may be a sign of other health code violations, just a heads up. Personally, I wouldn't order the eggs, but I think the burgers are just fine. But I don't much like eggs anyway. If you want to have some fun, type "el llano restaurant chicago" into google and view the cached version of the first hit. It should be a department of health report from 2001 citing El Llano for quite a few issues, including, surprisingly, a lack of hot water. We can assume, since they're back open, that the problems have been resolved. -Ed Wed May 21 21:14:11 -0700 2003 613171 0 Ed Fisher 2 613178 When I was steward of my co-op at the University of Michigan, just a few years ago, we ordered our food from the same service that provided food to all the fraternities. I remember calling the woman in charge once to complain that the eggs hadn't been put into the refrigerator when they'd been delivered. She assured me, though no doubt she'd deny it under oath, that eggs were safe for quite a long time out of the refrigerator. It's also certainly true that when my grandmother sold eggs to her rural Wyoming neighbors during the depression they weren't going into refrigerators, or even ice boxes, except maybe at the doctor's house, where my grandmother automatically delivered a dozen eggs every week at no charge by way of building up a credit for times when the doctor would be needed. All this, of course, was before salmonella had been invented, but still I wouldn't necessarily avoid eggs at the Harlo (which surely sells a lot of them) just for that reason. Wed May 21 21:41:37 -0700 2003 613175 0 Ann Fisher 3 613184 Well, you're my mother, so you already know I generally don't eat eggs except as a part of some larger non-eggy dish, like mousse/gelato/baked goods. I too doubt Harlo has had problems with Salmonella, since the current estimates for salmonella infection in eggs is about 1 instance per 10,000 eggs, and some estimates place it at more like 1 per 20,000 eggs. -Ed Wed May 21 22:49:50 -0700 2003 613178 0 Ed Fisher 4 613206 Although I am not your mother, I am the mother of another chowhound regular and here is the scoop on eggs. Although your statistics are right the precentage of salomnella happening in a restaurant setting is much greater due to the amount of eggs used. Also even though it is a shell egg, salmonella can pass through the shell. All that aside the Illinois and Federal regulations state that eggs must be refrigerated at 41 degrees at all times. So keeping eggs unrefrigerated is against regulations and is considered a violation of the code. Paulette Thu May 22 11:44:22 -0700 2003 613184 0 Paulette 5 613493 salmonella passes thru the shell and is more of a problem than in the past at least partly because the antibiotics used in the large scale chicken factories make the shells thinner and more suseptible to penetration by salmanella. Thu May 29 16:41:40 -0700 2003 613206 0 joan 5 613501 We just returned from Europe where we stayed on a farm and had eggs gathered (only happens every 2-3 days, so they're sitting around unrefrigerated) straight from the nest as well as seeing them for sale in locations ranging from open-air markets to supermarkets in big malls. None refrigerated. It is considered sort of heretical there, and said to ruin the taste. Thu May 29 20:31:11 -0700 2003 613206 0 annieb 5 613620 Years ago I studied in London for a semester and was absolutely unable to comprehend that when the local grocer kept saying, "Eggs? They're on the shelf next to the bread," he really meant, "They're on the shelf next to the bread." As in snuggled up next to. For days. Never had a problem with them though. Mon Jun 02 18:00:29 -0700 2003 613206 0 chris robinson 6 613656 Oh the good old days when eggs where kept on a shelf. Paulette Tue Jun 03 10:17:24 -0700 2003 613620 0 Paulette 3 613185 One of the things the French think is funny about us foodwise is our insistence that an egg (a sterile, sealed container) needs to be refrigerated, which to them makes about as much sense as keeping unopened cans of soup in the fridge. I remember reading something which suggested that our sense of the risks of salmonella infection was wildly skewed-- if I recall, it said that the risk of salmonella in a chicken was about 1 in 3, and in an egg, about 1 in 10,000. Wed May 21 22:50:38 -0700 2003 613178 0 Mike G 2 613188 Ed, The El Llano you found on the Google search is, I believe, the old location and not the current VI fave and more recent site of MikeG's linguistic frustration. Incidentally, I think that to get the full feel of River Forest Grill, it's best to go a few hours before dawn, when the Red Dragon works the grill -- you can taste his contempt...and it's delicious. Wed May 21 23:12:01 -0700 2003 613175 0 David Hammond 2 613195 I was at the River Forest Grill just once. It was after 1 a.m.; my sister and I had spent the day at a nearby hospital with our mother, who was suddenly and inexplicably dying. At first the woman at the counter intimidated the hell out of us, and when my sister asked if there was any decaf I cringed, expecting a surly response. I was wrong, her answer was a pleasant "I can make some." Physically and mentally exhausted, and still in a state of shock, we tried to come to terms with our mom's imminent death. We got our sandwiches and a couple of minutes later the woman introduced herself, talked about her granddaughter, and without being intrusive, chatted with us. I suspect she heard us talking about our mother but she didn't let on. That sandwich was the best BLT I've ever eaten and the coffee was the best I've ever drank, although I couldn't tell you what either of them tasted like. This may sound corny and hokey, but while it was the sandwich and coffee we ate, it was her gentleness and warmth that we ingested while sitting at that counter. All I remember from that night, the worst night of my life, was that woman's kindness, and how she reached out to a couple of strangers who she would likely never see again, and without doing anything she gave us everything. Her name is Rose, and she has my eternal gratitude Thu May 22 02:33:49 -0700 2003 613175 0 mw 3 613200 Wow, each morning I have been waking up to some of the best chowhound posts ever. MW you remind us that the quality of the meal often has little to do with the fare on the plate. Thanks for sharing. Rob Thu May 22 07:42:46 -0700 2003 613195 0 Vital Information 4 613229 Thanks, Rob. Coming from you, it's an honor. Marcia W. Thu May 22 23:57:28 -0700 2003 613200 0 mw 1 613189 Ed, you sound like you will be with us for the allnightathon for sure (whenever it happens). Two things I'd add about Harlo: Big plus - Very cool 50's era facade and faded sign Big minus - I'm no neat freak (to say the least), but I find Harlo always on the dirty side. Incidently, if you go to RF Grill during breakfast time, you will see the eggs in the same un-refrigerated state under counter. BTW, there are a few more 24 hours spots in the vicinity including Mikes at Lake and 25th. All the more fodder for the all night thingy, no? Wed May 21 23:21:50 -0700 2003 613171 0 Vital Information 2 613193 Yeah, there was something of a layer of grime, but nothing too terrible. Perhaps they had just given everything a wipedown. Allnightathon sounds good, only caveat is that I work 'til 11pm thurs/fri/sat, so I'd have to join the party late. -Ed Thu May 22 00:43:00 -0700 2003 613189 0 Ed Fisher 1 613202 Did you eat all of this food in one night? Now that would be impressive. Thu May 22 09:46:00 -0700 2003 613171 0 GDS 2 613219 Or perhaps depressing. I ate the food from Harlo Grill at approximately 5:05pm Wednesday, and the food from the River Forest grill at approximately 5:40pm Wednesday. Let me rephrase. Very depressing. But they were good burgers. -Ed Thu May 22 16:11:36 -0700 2003 613202 0 Ed Fisher 3 613222 that's not depressing...it's admirable--taking one for the team Thu May 22 17:42:58 -0700 2003 613219 0 CMC 1 613217 They also have Canfield's on tap at Popalano's in Lansing on Torrence Ave(about 180th and Torrence). Thankfully they also have water on tap. Thu May 22 15:11:49 -0700 2003 613171 0 CMC