112663 Sat Apr 26 18:56:21 -0700 2003 15 7 Chicago Area 0 612104 A friend is making plov for a party we are having the 9th. Her recipe calls for Dezira rice, a pinkish tinged medium grained variety. Do any of you Hounds have any ideas where we could find this? Any ideas on Uzbek or other similar gorceries? Sat Apr 26 18:56:21 -0700 2003 0 Octarine 1 612130 Now this is precisely what I was just saying to Aaron! Sometimes the cooking skills of this board really intimidate me. Some time ago, Bacchus casually mentioned that he just happened to be making gorditas (!) at home. Cathy2 one-upped that and announced that she made Peking Duck (!). Gwiv took the cake and trounced everyone else by claiming that he killed the pig! Of course, Aaron is spending the weekend preparing a Middle-Eastern spread for 30 (!) people. Now Octarine is making plov! There's some frighteningly serious cooking behind the scenes of the Chicago board! I have not been able to track down any Uzbeki groceries in town. Of course, our one reference point for Uzbeki cooking (there's a review from 2 years ago from AOkrent) burned down last year and no one knows for sure if it is reopening. Apparently, the only place in Chicago to enjoy Uzbeki dishes at the moment is at Russian Tea Time, whose owners are supposely Uzbeks (does anyone know for sure if they are?) I had this theory last year that it might also be possible to find an Uzbeki presence in Chicago by searching in Jewish communities (synagogues etc) and specifically in Russian-Jewish areas in Skokie, Lincolnwood etc. I might be wrong here: but I had the impression that all those Uzbeks who settled in Queens (Rego Park and so on) are actually so-called Bukharan Jews. In fact, it may be quite possible (this is uninformed speculation) that the majority of the Uzbeks in this country are actually Jewish (from Bukhara, but also from Samarkand and Tashkent). Claudia Roden (in her great, great volume on Jewish cooking) devotes a splendid chapter to explaining the history and traditions of this group and this cuisine. I went so far as posting a query on the forums of the website Bukharianjews.com (note spelling -ian). I was in France at that time but was so obsessed by this that I actually posted it from an internet cafe over there. I just checked and the post is still there, but still without any replies (but then this site doesn't see much traffic). I tasted plov in New York and in fact remember distinctly being struck by the fact that the rice was not the (Indian) basmati that is generally used in "Persian" cooking in this country and which I was expecting (on the misguided assumption that Uzbeki rice dishes would be similar to Iranian or Turkish). The rice was closer to medium-grained "Chinese" perhaps marginally "stickier" although this could be the effect of cooking technique and not bec of some glutinous variety. I know absolutely nothing about US-Russian trade/importing or of NY Uzbek (or LA Uzbek) relations with their homeland (do they fly back and forth easily? Is there ease of transport?), but I am going to make another totally uninformed stab-in-the-dark speculation that the rice I ate (the rice used for plov in LA or NY Uzbek restaurant) was in fact not Uzbeki, but perhaps "Chinese" or even more likely, "Indian" rice of the medium-grained sort that is used in some traditions for biryani. Note also that none of the many Iranian varieties of rice are actually available in this country. (For a list of some of the special types/varieties, see the two new Batmanglij cookbooks). Most people just use one of the dozen plus brands of Indian/Pakistani basmati available (some brands off the top of the head: Lal Quila, Tilda etc). This is not only due to the long-term Iranian trade embargo (see the "green almond" thread for links) but also bec Iran does not produce enough rice in the first place and (I think) imports from India to start. This said, it is quite possible that somewhere in LA (which has an immense Iranian population) one might find specially-brought-in bags of those rice. One never knows what kind of foodstuff might be deemed important/valuable enough to bring in by any one community. Who would have thought for instance to find the Keralan puzhukallari rice in Chicago? I was at Arya Foods (5061 N. Clark, e side of street, 2 blocks s of Foster) a couple of days ago. This Iranian grocery is owned by a wonderful grandfatherly/ grandmotherly Iranian-Assyrian couple, Mr and Mrs Babayan. I will write about this visit tomorrow on the "Assyrian" thread (bec I spoke to them at length about who's who on N. Clark, which restaurant owners in Andersonville are Assyrians/who are not, the life Assyrians live in Iran, what kind of relations Iranian-Assyrians have with Iraqi-Assyrians here in Chicago etc). Now I have to go back there and see if they have any of those special kinds of rice. I'll also try snooping around on Devon and northwards on California this week. Who knows, maybe we just might still find something for that plov. Out of curiosity: whose recipe for plov was it? I googled "dezira" and found nothing. Richard Mon Apr 28 00:32:27 -0700 2003 612104 0 RST 2 612132 Well, Octarine, I went ahead and posted your question on that forum. You can view replies (if there are any) or post other questions by clicking "forums" at bukharianjews.com (again: note their spelling of BukharIan). Incidentally, there seems to be a thread on plov (in cyrillic script) on the recipe board. Maybe that's where I should have posted the question. There are a couple of interesting articles on the site, for instance, re: stability of Jewish communities under the communists, their relations with pro-Russians versus pro-Iranian factions in politics etc The chapter on Bukharan Jewish cooking in Claudia Roden is a must-read (the whole book is!) Richard Mon Apr 28 01:20:16 -0700 2003 612130 0 RST 2 612154 Greetings to e-Gourmets of Chowhound.com, I enjoyed your exchange in regards to Plov/rice situation. Couple things: 1) I am not familiar with Dezira Rice but I suspect that maybe (BIG maybe) the recipe implied the presence of zira (Uzbek spelling, also zra - other names zeera, jihra) AKA cumin seeds, which is very common in Uzbek Plov recipes. 2) A very important other spice in Tashkent Plov recipe is barbaris (did some search, it is Barberry). Sometimes, it can be found in Russian (Three Sisters - (773)973-1919 or Indo/ Pak groceries on Devon in West Rogers Park. I am travelling to Uzbekistan this summer for the first time in 13 years - will try to "sneak in" if lucky :) 3) I did not see the original recipe but highly reccommend to put whole undressed garlic head - a fantastic addition. FYI, Bukharian Jews and Uzbeks in Samarkhand will add raisins and chick peas to Plov. 4) As for the rice (main question), most of us use Basmati style rice or Chinese (small) rice. From personal experience, you will not go wrong if Plov is prepared properly - long grain Uncle Ben's will do too! 5) Russian Tea Time owners (my Mom and I) are indeed from Tashkent, Uzbekistan. Although not Uzbeks (our heritage is Ashkenazi Jews from Ukraine - evacuated during WWII), we love Uzbek cuisine, culture, hospitality and local traditions. 6) Finally, couple recommendations on Uzbek restaurants (probably all run by Bukharian Jews - all kosher, i.e. closed Friday night and Sat afternoons) - in Queens - King David, Ugolok, Stolovaya, Ariela; in Manhatten on 47th street - Jewelers District - 3rd floor (just ask anyone for Bukharian restaurant) small joint - the best Samsa, Manti and Plov! Warm regards, Vadim Muchnik Link: http://www.russianteatime.com Mon Apr 28 13:12:51 -0700 2003 612130 0 Vadim Muchnik 3 612161 Spasibo, Mr. Muchnik! Thank you very much for the clarifications! Is it correct to say that the majority of the Uzbeks in the United States are "Bukharian Jews"? A number of the most prominent Uzbek restaurants in Queens are certainly Jewish (kosher). But what is the situation in Los Angeles? There are supposedly also a couple of Uzbek restaurants in that city. Are these Bukharian-Jewish as well? There are several posts on the "Outer Boroughs" (New York) board of this website on Uzbek restaurants (search on "Uzbek"). There was one very intriguing one that describes Uzbeks insisting on making plov only on an open wood-fire. Apparently, there are many other little rituals that go into the making of a proper plov! Are the Muslim and the Jewish culinary heritages in Uzbekistan fairly similiar, or are there major differences? Some of the posts on the New York board describe side dishes that seem almost Korean (specifically, one post made a comparison to kim-chee). Several major Korean companies have set up important joint ventures or manufacturing facilities in Uzbekistan. Could such side dishes be examples of recent international influence on the cuisine? Are there a lot of Uzbeks and/or Bukharian Jews in the Chicago area? Is it correct to assume that most of them have settled (along with Georgians, Armenians, other Russian Jews etc) in our northern and northwestern suburbs (Skokie, Lincolnwood etc)? Are there Kazakh, Turkmen, Tadjiki or other Central Asian communities in Chicago? Apart from Three Sisters, are there any other Russian, Georgian, Armenian groceries in the Chicago area that you would recommend to the board? Are there any supermarkets-say, in Skokie-that cater to recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union? I will be working in New York (commuting back and forth) most of this summer and will definitely try the restaurants that you have recommended. Many many thanks once again! Richard Mon Apr 28 21:17:21 -0700 2003 612154 0 RST 4 612174 The following link has interesting information on the Korean diaspora in Central Asia. The biggest Korean companies doing business in Uzbekistan include Daewoo and Samsung. I find it intriguing that Korean influences in food have apparently followed Uzbek immigration to Queens. Link: http://www.koryosaram.freenet.kz/ Tue Apr 29 11:19:01 -0700 2003 612161 0 RST 5 612211 But not too different from Cuban Chinese or Lebanese Brasilian or West Indian curry, if you think about it. Tue Apr 29 20:19:09 -0700 2003 612174 0 annieb 1 612137 RST prompted me to do a little research as well. Here are the completely unscientific results. First (an Azeri) site said: "The type of rice used is usually the long-grain basmati-style rice, which they are starting to grow again in the Lankaran region, in the south of Azerbaijan. To keep the rice from burning, some cooks place a thin layer of lavash bread or potatoes in the bottom of the pan. This becomes gazmag ("tadig" in Farsi), the crunchy delicacy that many consider to be the best part of the plov." http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/83_folder/83_articles/83_249.html On a Russian website, which duly acknowledged the Uzbek origins of the dish, the recipe called for Bas-mati rice. http://www.ruscuisine.com/cooking-recipes/index.php/meat-dishes/lamb/?recipe=67&offset=0 "The choice of rice is also important if you want to get the texture right - not that it won't work with any kind of rice, but Uzbeks always use some kind of short-grain rice which makes a more glutinous, slightly sticky mixture. The preferred type seems to be 'Barakat' but outside Central Asia I don't know where you would find it." http://ashycook.topcities.com/ricedishes/uzbekplov.htm A not inconsiderable number of sites insist on long-grain rice. My informal count (using Google) of short/medium/long-grain rice recommendations (among the sites that bother to specify) is 4/4/10. Use this information as you will (nearly said, “with a grain of salt.”) Needless to see, most of the Central Asian (former Soviet) republics have their own variation on this nearly universal dish. If you want more information than you could possibly ever use, check out basmati.com, which has tons of rice info (mostly for rice traders/buyers) including a report on the Uzbek market! What this all means remains to be seen, but I guess you won't go wrong with a Basmati or Basmati-style. Good luck! Gypsy Boy Mon Apr 28 08:27:39 -0700 2003 612104 0 Gypsy Boy 2 612163 Fascinating stuff. Thanks. I didn't even know that "rough rice futures" are actually traded at the CBOT (Chicago Board of Trade). Everything is interconnected, I guess. Maybe I should invest... ;) Mon Apr 28 21:48:17 -0700 2003 612137 0 RST 1 612160 Wow, thanks for the info! In the interests of full disclosure, I am not making it although I would be willing to help. A friend of mine has promised to make it as part of a big party the denizens of the Straight Dope are throwing in Chicago. She mentioned she was having difficulty with the rice and was going to go with basmati so I thought I would do a little detective work for her. I appreciate the responses and will definitely try the Iranian grocery story for Barberrys (sp) Mon Apr 28 21:06:28 -0700 2003 612104 0 Octarine 2 612162 I'll do the promised post on Iranian-Assyrian presence in Chicago later. But in the meantime, here are a couple of addresses: Arya Food Imports 5061 N. Clark (773) 878-2092 Mr. and Mrs. Babayan (for more info, see the separate post below) There is another Iranian grocery in Andersonville, called "Pars". It's a few blocks north of Arya (and of Foster) on the other (west) side of the street. It's also stocked with many fascinating things. I was told that the Iranian owner of Pars is neither Muslim nor Christian (i.e. Assyrian) but a member of the Baha'i community. Pars Persian Store 5260 N. Clark (773) 769-6635 Mr. Cyrus Haghighi I will provide the links/titles of the new cookbooks by Najmieh Batmanglij later (including the one called Silk Road Cooking-with recipes from China, Western China, Central Asia etc). I think that with the publication of these cookbooks, there will be a revival of interest in "Persian" cuisine and in the cuisines of Central Asia. Time to stock up now! RST Mon Apr 28 21:33:25 -0700 2003 612160 0 RST 3 612277 Ok, here are the four books of Najmieh Batmanglij. They are all published by an outfit called Mage located in Washington, D.C. I have not tested any of the recipes but the pictures, specially for the 2002 Silk Road Cooking, are very inspiring. The books are badly edited with plenty of rather obvious mistakes (Alain Ducas for Ducasse, low-gluten (sic!) rice instead of non-glutinous etc). "Silk Road Cooking" is actually a vegetarian cookbook, so it might be of special interest to the vegetarians on this board (Aubergine, no?, Mrs. Zim etc). It include recipes from Northern China, Szechuan, Samarkand (Uzbekistan), Isfahan, Istanbul and beyond! Quite inspiring and amazing material! Food of Life: A Book of Ancient Persian and Modern Iranian Cooking and Ceremonies 1986 Persian Cooking for a Healthy Kitchen 1994 A Taste of Persia: An Introduction to Persian Cooking 1999 Silk Road Cooking: A Vegetarian Journey 2002 **** A Taste of Persia has the information I mentioned earlier on the different types of rice used in Persian cooking. I found the same information in this book: Margaret Shaida, The Legendary Cuisine of Persia, Interlink, 2002 From p 54 .rice grows only in a few limited areas, mostly along the narrow Caspian littoral in the north but also in some rare, lush valleys in the temperate regions of the south. There are five main types of rice produced in Iran, the very best of which is called AMBAR-BOO (amber-scented). Grown only in a few small areas, it has a fine, very long grain...unbroken...has the loveliest fragrance...usually reserved for use by the imperial court. The DARBARI rice (is)...hard, long-grained...grown solely on the Shah's extensive rice plantations in Gilan. The rice most commonly used for festivals and entertainment is the DOM SIAH (black-tailed), a variety of basmati. ...long-grained, hard, aromatis, and with a cream-colored transparency. .SADRI...is eaten by most urban families and by the rural poor on special occasions...The sadri rice was brought into Iran from India... .almost all the rice produced in Iran is consumed there, leaving none, sadly, for export. Finally, there is the GERDEH or CHAMPA variety, a short-grained, almost round rice... Margaret Shaida goes on to describe the connoisseurship of rice and the purchasing of rice which requires skills "serious as wine tasting". ***** The old Time-Life Books volume on Russian cuisine has paragraphs (pp180-181) on Uzbeki palov (plov) that describe the "structures...exact principles and rigid time sequences" involved in the cooking (first in the pot, the grainy fat of the tail of a sheep, then the meat, then onions, then wild yellow carrots, then "the rice is run through the fingers grain by grain...") It also describes many "improvisations on the basic palov theme", ex: palovs that "contained quinces, succulent pumpkin, eggs, meatballs, chicken, garlic and dried peas. In Bukhara, Uigur chefs made us a golden palov based on pheasant. At Chaikana in Tashkent, the chef was also an Uigur and in his mutton palov, he gave us a multi-colored medley of rice, butter, raisins, dried apricots, onion rings and red peppers." ***** The whole chapter on Bukharan Jews in Claudia Roden's The Book of Jewish Food: An Odyssey from Samarkand to New York is too wonderful to be quoted in parts. It just simply has to be read in its entirety. The chapter describes the community's long isolation from the rest of the Jewish world, its slow integration after 1793, its fate under the Soviets, its periods of prosperity and poverty etc. The section on Bukharan Jews starts on p453. There is a recipe for "plof" as well (p457): "The art of making plof is not to mix the ingredients but to cook them in layers. The result, when you turn it out, inverted, is a topping of meltingly soft-and in parts caramelized-vegetables and browned chicken over a fluffy light-colored rice infused with the flavors of the vegetables..." RST Wed Apr 30 23:59:33 -0700 2003 612162 0 RST 4 612281 Did you happen to see the article in yesterday's Good Eating section of the Trib about an Iraqi woman who self-published a cooking/history of cooking of Mesopotamian food? Here's the link. Anyone know anything about this? Aaron Link: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/food/chi-0304300282apr30,1,289506.story Thu May 01 10:08:32 -0700 2003 612277 0 Aaron D 5 612287 Hey Aaron, that cookbook came up recently - at the attached thread you'll find a link to her site with some of the recipes and writing on it Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/112587#611590 Thu May 01 10:57:54 -0700 2003 612281 0 zim 6 612293 Thanks, zim. I thought this book had been discussed, but checked this thread and assumed I was conflating this Persian cookbook thread and RST's offer to become an Iraqi culinary correspondent for the NYTimes. Unfortunately, no one really had any comment about the book in question in your original post on the matter. Thu May 01 11:43:28 -0700 2003 612287 0 Aaron D 1 612206 Hi! I realize I am coming late into this dialogue. Several years ago, Culinary Historians had Monica Eng's husband speak about their life in Uzbekistan. Monica's husband is an anthropology professor whose work caused them to live in Uzbekistan for an extended period of time. At every Culinary Historians meeting, we have samples of food related to the topic or culture. For Uzbekistan, plov (more commonly known here as pilaf) made of lamb was the featured dish. Usually the guest speakers provide recipes. IN this case, they provided a roughly sketched recipe which was more anecdotal than precise. Barbara called me into the picture seeking information about various ingrediants and methods of cooking. FYI - which I just reconfirmed - Barbara used Basmati Rice. Monica's husband raved over the Plov claiming it was the best rendition he had ever had. IT really did come our very well. So good technique will overcome not having the precise ingrediants. I make pilaf occasionally. I kind of play around with it, sometimes substituting curry or cinnamon for some of the spices. Raisons instead of nuts, ect. It's a nice midweek meal. Best regards, CAthy2 Tue Apr 29 19:01:18 -0700 2003 612104 0 Cathy2