112519 Mon Apr 07 02:23:11 -0700 2003 26 7 Chicago Area 0 610990 Hey all, I just purchased a really nice 17oz USDA Prime sirloin from Whole Foods. Loved it. I did not realize how good a prime steak can taste at home. (I crusted it with fleur de sel and seared in a cast iron skillet, served with cilantro based chimmichurri). Anyway, Wholefoods was muy expensive, at 17bucks for this cut of steak. Who has USDA *prime* and is most cost effective? Also, who sells USDA Prime *dry aged* steaks? anybody? Thanks! Jason Mon Apr 07 02:23:11 -0700 2003 0 Ligament 1 610992 Jason, There are a number of places in Chicago to purchase dry aged prime, though none of them are 'cheap'. Best known are Fox and Obel and Allen Brothers, but there are a number of others with excellent dry aged prime. Big Apple on Clark has an independent meat market in the back that sells very good dry aged prime beef as does Morningfield’s grocery in Park Ridge. Bornhofen's on N Broadway has a good selection of dry aged prime beef as does Schmeisser's on N Milwaukee Ave. There is also a meat market in Cary, Orchard Prime Meats, that has excellent dry aged prime beef. Lately I tend to use either Bornhofen's or Devon Ave for prime meat, but recently had a dry aged prime steak from from Orchard that knocked my socks off. I am sure I am forgetting a few, but this should give you a place to start. Just as an aside, if you are looking for good quality beef at a reasonable price I would recommend Costco. Costco carries choice and I've been quite satisfied with both quality and price. Enjoy, Gary == Big Apple Market 2345 N Clark St Chicago, IL 60614 773-880-5800 Full Service Butcher Prime Dry Aged Beef Bornhofen's Meat Market 6155 N Broadway St Chicago, IL 60660 773-764-0714 Full Service Butcher Prime Dry Aged Beef Devon Avenue Meats 800 Devon Ave Park Ridge, IL 60068 847-825-0478 (Inside Morningfield’s grocery) Full Service Butcher Prime Dry Aged Beef Fox and Obel 401 E. Illinois Street Chicago, IL 60611 312-410-7301 Prime Dry Aged Beef Full Service Butcher Fresh duck, foie gras etc. Schmeisser's Home Made Sausage 7649 N Milwaukee Ave Niles, IL 60714 847- 967-8995 Good sausages Fair to good butcher Dry aged prime Orchard Prime Meats 133 W Main Cary, IL 60013 847-639-3991 Prime Meat/Dry age Prime brisket for BBQ/Dry Age Whole Foods 50 W Huron St Chicago, IL 60610 312-932-9600 Mon Apr 07 06:50:47 -0700 2003 610990 0 G Wiv 2 610997 If you are willing to go as far afield as Niles or Cary, I would add this family-owned place in Wilmette to the list: Zier's Prime Meats 813 Ridge Wilmette, IL 60091 Telephone (847) 251 4000 Mon Apr 07 10:45:02 -0700 2003 610992 0 Kirk 3 611017 I just had to second the recommendation for Zier's. It's family owned and run, and Dave and Denise are knowledgeable and wonderful people. I've been buying their meat for years and it is consistently superb. They also do a number of nice time-savers, like marinated skirt steak, marinated chicken breasts, etc, all of which they do themselves, and they are excellent cooks. Mon Apr 07 14:45:54 -0700 2003 610997 0 susanb 4 611172 Jeez, I'm gone for a couple days and all these responses?! thanks. If you want mail-order GRASS fed hormone free, free range beef, you can order from: http://storesense01.dynamic.net/grassland/StoreFront.bok?affiliate_no=69 all the best, jason Thu Apr 10 03:31:19 -0700 2003 611017 0 Ligament 3 611020 Yes Zier's is a good place, but their name can be misleading. Just becuase it states "Prime Meats" it DOES NOT mean that all they serve are USDA Prime. The government allows anyone to market "Prime" meat (prime being just a descriptor), but there is only one true USDA Prime, it must say USDA to be the real thing. Mon Apr 07 15:33:23 -0700 2003 610997 0 Sweet Willie 4 611024 So is Zier's selling prime meat (USDA)? Mon Apr 07 15:45:57 -0700 2003 611020 0 Vital Information 5 611044 Yes, Zier sells USDA prime meat. I highly recommend it. Incidentally, my apologies if this has been discussed, but Jeffrey Steingarten's new book, It Must Have Been Something I Ate, has a heartrending discussion in the last chapter of the general dilution over the last several years of the label "prime" in terms of aging, marbling, and general quality. Mon Apr 07 17:35:47 -0700 2003 611024 0 susanb 6 611063 Most but not all is USDA Prime. Mon Apr 07 23:16:21 -0700 2003 611044 0 Sweet Willie 7 614517 just ask to see the usda stamp, whoever is working there will be happy to show it to you.Incidentally, the lamb or veal may or may not be stamped prime as I have found the difference between choice and prime in this instance to be inconsequential(sic?)and the price from the packer is no greater for prime over choice-unlike beef which can be substantially higher. About the only beef cuts that will not have the stamp on it would be the ribeye(the substantial fat cap is removed)and the tenderloin(too small an area for the govt. grader to effectively mark it with the die,and thus making the appearance somewhat dipleasing to the clientelle)the prices may not be the cheapest, but you won't find a steak or roast any juicier or more tender.thanks for the press! Sat Jun 21 23:28:38 -0700 2003 611063 0 davez 2 611028 Now,you see why he is the UltimoChowhound. Mon Apr 07 16:28:22 -0700 2003 610992 0 YourPalWill 1 611021 While not dry aged, I buy USDA Prime rib eyes at Mitsuwa Grocery in Arlington Hts for $7.69lb which is an ongoing non-sale price. Mitsuwa also carries Kobe sliced for sukiyaki. Mon Apr 07 15:35:39 -0700 2003 610990 0 Sweet Willie 1 611025 Paulina market on Lincoln has some of the best meats available -- including dry aged USDA prime. I don't think that this will be the cheapest, but it may be the best. To get better you would have to buy from restaurant supply house. Mon Apr 07 16:08:01 -0700 2003 610990 0 big belly bob 2 611027 Big Belly Bob, Paulina sells choice beef, what they call 'Top Choice', not prime. Paulina has dry aged prime available, but only frozen and it's not aged in-house, they buy it cryovaced, portion controlled and ready to sell. Don't get me wrong here, not saying Paulina isn't a good meat market, only that they do not sell prime or dry aged prime, unless you count the small selection of other some other meat processors frozen product. Enjoy, Gary Mon Apr 07 16:19:58 -0700 2003 611025 0 G Wiv 1 611030 On the same page about prime at home. Steak is one of the few things I don't like to eat out. The mark-up is absurd, and while I'm not convinced it takes much skill to cook good steak beautifully, I have a hard time getting it prepared to my liking (charred outside, bloody inside) at a restaurant. The only thing I would add to the list below is that Treasure Island on Broadway also tends to carry prime. Others, such as the one on Clybourn, generally do not. Also, and this probably goes without saying, use your eyes and keep in mind that there can be a wide range in quality not only between but also within the three grades of beef. Aged meat is obviously a different beast, but otherwise it is often true that great choice steaks will be as good or even better than low-end prime. Paulina Meat Market, for example, often has choice steaks with far more marbling than you find in prime beef at other places in the city. Of course it's Paulina, so you pay for it. Mon Apr 07 16:29:04 -0700 2003 610990 0 Jason 2 611065 " but otherwise it is often true that great choice steaks will be as good or even better than low-end prime." Jason, I'm not an expert but I did sell meat for 9 years so I know a few things and this is not meant as a slam. If the meat is truly USDA Prime and the other USDA Choice and the choice turns out to be a better steak it is a fluke which of course can happen seeing as it is a natural animal. True USDA Prime will always be a "better" cut of beef than USDA Choice. Also, one store does not sell better USDA Choice or USDA Prime than another. The grading is all done by the feds. A store/restaurant buyer is not able tell his distributor that he wants a higher quality USDA Choice because it does not exist, USDA Choice is USDA Choice take it or leave it. Mon Apr 07 23:27:47 -0700 2003 611030 0 Sweet Willie 3 611067 Hey SW, Not taken as a slam... Do elaborate though. My understanding has always been that aging aside, the difference between grades select, choice, and prime is mostly if not entirely marbling(again, dry aged beef aside)--that the main difference in taste and texture between grades is determined by the fine interior webbing of fat. I can tell you that Paulina sells what someone below mentions they call "top choice," that it is often marbled as well or better than some beef labeled USDA prime at other stores in the area, and that it makes as good and sometimes a better steak--to my tastebuds at least. I can also say that I have had conversations with more than one butcher at Paulina where I've been told that they try to find the best choice, stuff marbled as well as prime. And I can say that in many years of first my father and now personally dealing with Paulina I am not wont to believe they have engaged in false or fraudulent advertising. But it is entirely possible if not likely that I am a nitwit, perhaps on this issue and certainly on others, so let me know if there are other factors besides marbling involved, perhaps not aging, but age of the animal? Thanks and take care. Jason Tue Apr 08 00:51:44 -0700 2003 611065 0 Jason 3 611068 Well, that's kinda true. But within each "group" (prime/choice/select/dog food) there are multiple different scores. If i remember correctly, the actual score a cut of meat can get is 1-11, and something like 9 and above are all "Prime". So, in theory, one store might buy meats with "abundant" marbling - a score of 11 - while another might buy meats with "Slightly abundant" - a score of 9. Both are USDA Prime, though.. but one will be "Prime +" and the other is "Prime -". Another note - the USDA grading system is heavily slanted in favor of corn-fed (that is, crappy) beef. Corn-feeding promotes intramuscular fat growth -- aka marbling -- and the USDA grading system rewards that. Personally, the focus on marbling is bunk. Feeding cows corn instead of grass is bad for them, bad for us, bad for the environment, and bad for our palates. The only people who benefit from corn feeding are the farmers and ranchers. Go try a real range-fed cut of meat some time, and you'll see what beef is supposed to taste like. Another note on aging. Wet aging - aging in vacuum sealed containers - is great for increasing tenderness, but does absolutely nothing to improve the flavor. Furthermore, with dry aging tenderness peaks at about 3 weeks of aging, while flavor peaks at 7-10 weeks. Nearly all butchers, including most who sell prime beef, age no more than 3 weeks, though. My recommendation is to learn the USDA grading scales and, if you're really serious about meat, check the marbling on the steak before you buy it. Also, ask how and how long the butcher ages the steaks, and buy the closest to 8 weeks or so (personal preference) that you can find. And finally, give grass fed beef (or bison!) a try, you'll thank yourself. My day-to-day butcher (Jim's Meat Market in Cicero) sells corn-fed USDA Prime cuts for reasonable prices. If I could afford great grass fed beef, believe me, I'd buy it. Perhaps when I have more money. My personal favorite cuts from Jim: filet tail, cubed, for shish kabob ($6/lb last time I was there) and prime ribeye, center cut, about 14oz or more, for about $9/lb. He also sells lots of other cuts -- although he doesn't sell hanger steaks :( -- but some of them may be frozen. He'll grind meats on request, too, so you can get a nice 50/50 blend of chuck and sirloin, perfect for burgers. He sells his own various sausages, lamb, chicken, duck, etc etc etc. And it is, best of all, located across the street from Freddy's pizza, so you can make a stop into freddy's for some pizza, gelato, or pepperoni bread for lunch and cross the street to buy some steaks for dinner. My butcher: Jim's Meat Market 1538 S 61st Ave, Cicero, IL -ed Link: http://www.smartmv.com/usdagrading.html Tue Apr 08 00:54:58 -0700 2003 611065 0 Ed Fisher 4 611077 Very informative. However, I think reasonable palates can disagree about which tastes better, corn-fed or grass-fed (and perhaps beer-fed, as in the Kobe and psuedo-kobe stuff). I've eaten at some of the "best" steak houses, rodizio's, churrascarias, road houses and other steak-centric joints in Latin America (esp. Brazil and Argentina where beef is even more of a way of life than in the US), Africa and Europe, and even tried the indigenous grass-fed meat in Hawaii, and My Opinion is, that none of it comes close to a prime, corn-finished US or Canadian steak in terms of flavor and texture. That is, unless the flavor you want is liver/chlorophyll and the texture you seek is stringy. Also, no commercial animal processing enterprise is good for the environment. However, I have yet to be convinced that the feed-lot system is worse for the world than the antiquated system of letting cows roam thousands of acres of pampas that could be used to grow grains and vegetables that, in turn, could feed the starving masses. All of that said, your post contained more useful information than a dozen fluff articles about beef in food and wine or lifestyle magazines. Thanks. I might even try grass-fed beef again. Tue Apr 08 11:05:05 -0700 2003 611068 0 JeffB 5 611207 Definitely, grass-fed beef isn't for everyone. It has a richer (more livery) flavor than normal beef, and it isn't nearly as tender. That being said, for people who like eating hanger steaks (the richest/most livery steak on a cow, excluding the liver), grass fed may be the way to go. One reason grass fed cows have that taste and texture is that they're often slaughtered at a later age than corn-fed animals, and beef tastes beefier (and liverier) as the cow gets older, and the muscles also get less tender. Personally, I like it, but it's definitely not for everyone--especially in a country where tenderness is now the judge of a steak's quality, rather than flavor. And, of course, some people simply prefer the flavor of a corn-raised or corn-finished cow. It's milder, after all. For me, it's kind of a spectrum: veal -- corn-fed -- grass fed. The left is the tenderest, but has the least flavor (in my opinion), while the right is the toughest and has the most flavor. My family actually had a mixture of corn-fed prime ribeye and grass-fed ribeye (from trader joe's) for dinner a couple weeks ago. My dad and I both prefered grass fed, but my mom prefered the cornfed (a surprise, since she's the only one of us who likes beef liver). My dad prefering grass-fed was also a surprise, since he was, for a long time, an advocate of the "cut it with a fork" test of a steak's superiority--but he seems to have grown to like the texture of the grass fed steak. In short, palates are different. Try everything and find your preference, I say. And it sounds like you've done that. My post was mainly directed to people who have only known corn-fed beef, though :) Thu Apr 10 21:22:09 -0700 2003 611077 0 Ed Fisher 6 611231 Agreed. Your posts about all things bovine are great. Thanks. BTW, the thing about your mom is interesting. I love liver in many forms, and even like "livery" birds like squab and wild ducks much more than, say, a Perdue chicken breast. But when it comes to steak, I want it to taste like it came from Morton's. Fri Apr 11 11:42:22 -0700 2003 611207 0 JeffB 4 611080 Ed, Thanks for the very informative report. So a few questions: 1) If you WERE going to buy grass fed beef, where would you buy it? 2) Is it possible to get grass fed beef AND prime beef? 3) Does the breed of cattle have any bearing on the deliciousness of the steaks? Obviously, certain breeds get fatter, or get fatter intramuscle-y, but are there other flavor attributes between breeds. 4) And if breeds do matter, what breed do you want/seek out? Enough? Rob Tue Apr 08 11:10:55 -0700 2003 611068 0 Vital Information 5 611082 Rob: The Meat market next to Tango Sur on Southport sells a decent Canadian grass fed beef. I assume it is what they now serve at Tango Sur as the Argentinian beef market has been eradicated in the US by Mad Cow disease. Having had real Argentinian pampass fed beef before, nothing else compares. However, the Canadian is not bad. Tue Apr 08 11:25:53 -0700 2003 611080 0 YourPalWill 6 611085 The new Saveur has an article on grass fed beef and a mailorder source, btw. Also tips on cooking, as the texture is different. I suspect this is something that's going to become more common as public awareness goes up. Tue Apr 08 12:11:34 -0700 2003 611082 0 Mike G 5 611191 It's pretty hard to find grass-fed beef in stores. Some places mail-order, but they usually cryovac and ship frozen. Some do ship only refrigerated, unfrozen, though. I don't generally have an opinion on breeds, although Piedmontese are rather nice. They're very lean - naturally, but have all the flavor of any normal breed, so you get a steak that's not terrible for you. Another good choice is american bison. Due to federal statutes (i'm not sure which exactly) bison, elk, etc are all required to be range-fed on grass since they're considered "wild game", even if they're being raised by farmers. So no matter what bison you buy (as long as it was raised in the US) it'll be range-fed. Bison is also naturally leaner than beef and naturally richer in flavor. As one other person noted, though, grass-fed cattle and bison tend to have a more "livery" flavor, which is what I mean when I say "richer". As for places to buy this stuff, it's really hard to say. You can buy individual pre-cut range-fed australian steaks at trader joe's at a decent price ($6.50/lb for ny strip or ribeye, all cut to about 10 or 11 oz), but they're all frozen, like I said. The ribeyes have very nice marbling, by the way, but they aren't USDA graded. I've had both the ribeyes and the strips, and both are very good. They're not nearly as tender as a USDA Prime ribeye (from Jim's), but they have, in my opinion, a much more intense beefy flavor. And the price is definitely right, so it's worth giving them a try at least. I think in general it's hard to find usda graded grass-fed beef, partly because the rancher assumes the cost of inspection, and in a specialty market grade doesn't matter as much as how it was raised. http://www.nelivestockalliance.org/ -- the new england livestock alliance -- might be a great choice, though, if you want to try grass fed beef. Note that the NELA does not require their animals to be range fed, just grass fed. They also ultrasound all animals before slaughter, which they say lets them get a better idea of the intramuscular fat ratio and the size of the muscles, so only animals that will be good eats will be slaughtered. They have an online store at http://www.nelastore.com/ It *is* expensive, though, about $16/lb for ribeyes with the "pasture perfect" brand. I'd recommend in general just looking and asking around. I know there are some bison farms in northwest wisconsin, and there's even a few bison hanging out near the wisconsin/illinois border. http://directory.google.com/Top/Shopping/Food/Meat/Exotic/Buffalo/ has a listing of various sites that will sell bison, and http://directory.google.com/Top/Shopping/Food/Meat/Beef/Natural_and_Organic/ has a listing of various sites that sell natural/organic/grass fed beef. Good luck. I'd love to hear your results. -Ed Link: http://www.auri.org/clients/images/bisnut.gif Image: http://www.auri.org/clients/images/bisnut.gif Thu Apr 10 15:02:53 -0700 2003 611080 0 Ed Fisher 6 611195 Here's a second to the recommendation of pre-cut, frozen, Australian, grass-fed ribeyes at Trader Joe's. A very good steak at a very reasonable price. Thu Apr 10 16:06:37 -0700 2003 611191 0 Aaron D 6 611196 Here's a second to the recommendation of pre-cut, frozen, Australian, grass-fed ribeyes at Trader Joe's. A very good steak at a very reasonable price. Thu Apr 10 16:06:39 -0700 2003 611191 0 Aaron D