111987 Tue Dec 31 22:15:32 -0800 2002 96 7 Chicago Area 0 607395 This FAQ is designed to help the visitor or new arrival to Chicago start finding great Chicago chow experiences. It does this in two ways: 1) For each food category, a SINGLE recommendation is listed which scores reasonably highly in terms of: - consensus opinion on this board - quintessential Chicagoness - proximity to commonly touristed parts of the city, especially downtown - not already being mentioned in EVERY damn guidebook out there Though these represent ONLY the choices of the author of this FAQ, they are the sorts of places that are frequently recommended, and the visitor who just wants a quick suggestion for deep dish pizza during a two-day stop can take ‘em and run with ‘em in confidence. 2) Next, each category features a number of links to interesting threads, allowing the casual or first-time visitor to jump right into the thick of this board’s varied discussions. To access these posts, the easiest way is to open another browser window, paste this URL into the address window and insert the post number where the 0000 is: http://www.chowhound.com/midwest/boards/chicago/messages/0000.html EXPLORE THE THREADS! In most cases the cited post is merely one of many posts in that thread worth reading, or the first and not necessarily most interesting one, and you are heartily encouraged to explore each entire thread. You are also heartily encouraged to pose more specific questions to this board; this FAQ of general answers is merely a beginning. NEED MORE INFO? Finally, if you need the address or other info for a restaurant, or want to compare against non-Chowhound reviews, the easiest way is to go to www.metromix.com (which includes Chicago Tribune reviews) or the restaurant section of www.chireader.com (which offers fairly high quality reader reviews—though not as high as here!) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1) PIZZA LOU MALNATI’S (439 N. Wells St., 312-828-9800, and other locations) makes the classic thick-as-a-phone-book Chicago pizza, with less tourist attention than the admirable Pizzeria Uno (where the late Lou once worked) or the less impressive Gino’s. Discussions of best: 14738, 12789, 11186, 8005; North side: 10870; South side: 18927 Dissatisfaction with New Haven-style at Piece: 10972 Italian-style at Pizza DOC: 3798 Foldability of crust as important criterion: 4918, 4963 2) ITALIAN BEEF AL’S ITALIAN BEEF (original in Little Italy at 1079 W. Taylor St., 312-733-8896; also in River North touristville at 169 W. Ontario St., 312-943-3222), is perhaps the best-known place for this Chicago sandwich, though as Vital Info noted (14736), “Al's meat is much different than most Italian beefs, a bit thicker, shorter pieces and more coarse. Likewise, their giardinara is different. Its kick comes from red pepper flakes not chopped sport peppers.” He also recommends the grilled sausage at the original Al’s location. Compare-and-contrast of Chi Italian Beefs by LA visitor: 15216 General discussion of many beefs (and why NOT to go to Jay Leno’s fave, Mr. Beef): 14732 How to survive the ordering Nazi at Johnnie’s: 13459 3) HOT DOGS SUPERDAWG (6363 N. Milwaukee Ave./Devon, 773-736-0660)-- There really isn’t a great Chicago dog near the main tourist areas (the Portillo’s in River North touristville maybe comes closest), but if you have a car, head up Milwaukee Ave. for a journey through the real Chicago and through neighborhoods of many nationalities; your reward at the far northwest edge of town will be unchanged 50s architecture, real carhop service, fat garlicky dogs and thick shakes. Sarcastic service at Wiener’s Circle: 9424 Rattlesnake dogs and duck fat fries at Hot Doug’s: 10393 Perfect boiled dogs in “prison-like” atmosphere at Gene & Jude’s: 4478, 5592 4) STEAK GENE & GEORGETTI’S (500 N. Franklin St., 312-527-3718) is a Rat Pack-era steak joint still frequented by politicians and hoods (but I repeat myself); take a good look at the first floor as you enter, because you WILL be seated in Siberia upstairs. (14371 has a memorable take on the G&G experience for non-bigshots.) General overview: 17084 Gibson’s: 11335 Morton’s: 16410 Keefer’s: 15102 Fogo de Chao: 14817 Note: Chicago Chop House has received the most consistent negative reviews of places the out of towner is likely to find himself at. 5) FINE DINING CYRANO’S BISTROT & WINE BAR (546 N. Wells St., 312-467-0546) ranks highly for value and romantic atmosphere given its busy, high-rent location a few blocks from Michigan Avenue and the Merchandise Mart. The kind of modest, underpublicized place that you can name-drop when you get back as a “find.” Some direct links to reviews of other fine dining establishments: Ambria: 17150 Bistrot Margot: 9072 Bistrot Margot, Kiki’s Bistro, bistros in general: 15872 Blackbird: 14844 Le Bouchon: 19030 Café des Architectes: 18738 Café Matou: 9038 Charlie Trotter’s: 9906, 16694 Chilpancingo: 13350 Crofton-On-Wells: 11174 Cyrano’s Bistrot: 11737 Fortunato’s: 11485, 17679 (pro), 16847 (middling) Four-stars in general (Trotter, Tru, Everest etc.): 14809; also entire thread beg. at 14797 Le Francais: 12498 Heat: 14549, 17702, 3841 Kevin: 10040 Kevin, Vivo, Printer’s Row, Crofton On Wells: 17145 Les Nomades: 13965 (semi-negative) Merlo: 12481 MK: 12730 Spiaggia: 14257 Spring, 15097 Sugar: 15524 (semi-negative, but great read) Thyme: 10371 Tomboy: 11736 Tournesol: 15897 Trio: 9811, 12926 (pro), 12476 (middling) Tru: 8878 Zealous: 12805 6) ITALIAN FOOD LA SCAROLA (721 W. Grand Ave., 312-243-1740; reviews at 10316, 8778) is the classic tiny, packed, patrons out of a Scorsese movie kind of place, located in an Italian neighborhood just beyond downtown. Beats the heck out of pack-em-in-for-big-portions-of-ordinary-food rackets like Rosebud or Maggiano’s. Spiaggia (four-star Italian): 14257 Bruna’s Ristorante and Heart of Italy neighborhood: 14819 Italian-style Italian: Follia, 17775 Harlem Ave. delis/stores: 15833 7) MEXICAN FOOD CHILPANCINGO (358 W. Ontario St., 312-266-9525, review at 13350) is an upscale River North Mexican restaurant by a Frontera Grill alum, Geno Bahena, that seems to be earning more raves than the place that originally put upscale Mexican on the map. Frontera vs. Ixcapuzalco/Chilpancingo: 13322 Mexican food stands in the famous Maxwell Street Market: 14822, see also 18069 Chicago, Best Mexican Food in the US?: 13513, 11823 How Do You Spot A Good Mexican Restaurant?: 13885 Oaxacan: 12650, 11716, 4109 8) CHINESE FOOD LITTLE THREE HAPPINESS (209 W. Cermak, 312-842-1964; see suggested items to order at 17166) is one of several spots in the touristy Wentworth St. Chinatown area whose menu includes the familiar but goes into realms far beyond the ken of P.F. Chang’s (fish lung, sea slug, etc.) Dim Sum: 5263, 5447, 10129, 11553 As religious experience: 14820 and 14478 Shanghaiese (Moon Palace): 8406 Taiwanese (Mei Shung): 10333 9) BREAKFAST WISHBONE (1001 W. Washington Blvd., 312-850-2663; also 3300 N. Lincoln) offers a yuppified but hearty and satisfying take on southern breakfast west of the Loop (near Harpo Studios), and in the Roscoe Village area. General discussion of breakfast faves: 10191 Near McCormack Place: 15219 Roscoe Village: 18410 Edna’s: 6118 10) MISCELLANEOUS A grab bag of references to posts on other cuisines: JAPANESE: Sushi: 15664; at Katsu, 19124; at Heat, 14549, 17702 KOREAN: 18928, 17441 (and others in thread beg. at 17360) THAI (a lot of discussion of how to get secret menus and more authentic/hotter dishes at Chicago’s outwardly interchangeable Thai restaurants): 19048, 18151, 16852, 14373, 14201, VIETNAMESE: In Argyle Street “Chinatown”: 12979, 6522 Not on Argyle Street: 17586 INDIAN: Downtown: 14668; on Devon, 5417, 2767; 24-hour cabbie joints, 10044 MIDDLE-EASTERN: 13673, 8549; Turkish: 12230, 7959 GREEK: 8350 EASTERN EUROPEAN: 9365 GERMAN: 10797 CARIBBEAN: 18837 (within Chickie’s Beef thread), 18939, 12382 BBQ: 11555, 9882, 7049 SOUL FOOD: 9934, 9933, 5217 DELI: 17637, 15988, 15900, 11009 LUNCH IN THE LOOP: 15775, 12165, 6344 COMPREHENSIVE (EATING TOUR) THREADS: 14073, 12517, 10011, 8184 (24-hour Chowathon), 7179 (best Chowblock in town) AN EARLIER ATTEMPT AT COMPREHENSIVELY POINTING TO ETHNIC THREADS: 8395 Tue Dec 31 22:15:32 -0800 2002 0 Mike G 1 607396 Well, my New Year's Resolution was to quit futzing around and post a FAQ, so here it is on what should be an easy date to remember when you want to link to it. Back when I first suggested a FAQ (an idea David Hammond has also suggested multiple times) there were basically two negative responses: that it was wrong to reduce Chicago's great diversity to deepdishpizzahotdogsitalianbeef (RST), and that it was wrong to write "the best" in stone when they're always evolving and new discoveries are always being made (VI). I hope this format at least takes those objections seriously even if it doesn't satisfy them. Pace RST, I think there is a certain audience that only wants a really good deep dish pizza, and I'd know because when I visited here the first time in 1985 that was all I wanted, and that's okay. You don't have to know the whole history of art to want to go to the Art Institute, either, and get something out of it. This FAQ gives that person a quick answer as requested, while hopefully enticing them into a little more exploration of the board by giving them shortcuts to some of the best discussions-- at which point my semi-arbitrary choice of Lou Malnati's, say, as THE pizza to have should give way to their own evaluation of the many voices and opinions on the board. I called this version 0.9 because even after skimming the depths of the board (a highly interesting and rewarding activity in itself), there are certain areas I feel are not terribly well annotated. It's surprising to find that there really isn't a single really comprehensive thread on such popular topics as Devon Indian, Greektown, BBQ or Eastern European food, for instance. Some of the cuisines listed in the grab bag at the end (section 10) are certainly qualified for the full-fledged treatment, and if anyone who knows, say, Japanese or Korean better than I wants to write a writeup for a place like the ones I wrote for other cuisines, send it to me (mike at michaelgebert.com) and I'll probably post it in v. 1.0. Likewise, if there's something you remember writing about some place, or that you read and really liked, and I don't link to it, let me know and I'll add a citation for it. There, I've stated my case for the defense. Now fire away. Tue Dec 31 22:30:38 -0800 2002 607395 0 Mike G 2 607398 I couldn't help but notice the thread on the Piece. Everyone has his/her idea of what a perfect pie should be. For me this pizza has the perfect folding crust, not too thin and definitely not thick. The sauce is hands down the best I've tasted. They are using top-notch tomatoes. They top it with terrific mozz, but not too much so that it hides the sauce. They are also using an excellent parmesan on top of the sauce. I am surprised at the negativity of some of the threads. My experience, and mind you I discovered Piece just three months ago, has been wonderful. Wed Jan 01 02:49:37 -0800 2003 607396 0 B Janeway 2 607475 from someone who reads this board a couple of times a week some observations regarding FAQ: It is a geat idea and can always be updated maybe evey 6 mos or so...such rest. is out of business, new chef=lousy food,add this new Italian to the list etc., etc. From what I have observed, VI does not seem to respond very often to the type of general questions an FAQ will answer...seems to frustrate him. Maybe a new "Mayor of chowhound" is needed. Thu Jan 02 19:51:04 -0800 2003 607396 0 Allison 3 607476 We don't change mayors in Chicago that way. When they carry him out (or he's sent to prison), THEN we'll get a new mayor. Thu Jan 02 20:00:32 -0800 2003 607475 0 Mike G 4 607480 Mike, that's very funny! For Allison, cf link below Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/111985#607387 Thu Jan 02 20:19:24 -0800 2003 607476 0 Vital Information 1 607400 Mike, Thank you, FAQ v.09 is a work of art. Enjoy, Gary Wed Jan 01 11:02:17 -0800 2003 607395 0 G Wiv 1 607401 Superb job. Not only is this an invaluable resource for us, but it ought to save visitors an immense amount of time as well. I can only begin to imagine the time and effort that went into it and so...thanks! I'll do my part to add/comment as opportunities arise. Dave aka Gypsy Boy Wed Jan 01 11:23:43 -0800 2003 607395 0 Gypsy Boy 1 607404 Great work, Mike. One request from us, though: if someone comes by to ask for tips for, say, good Italian food, please don't point him/her summarily to the FAQ for the answer, discouraging renewed conversation on the topic. Here's why. Though the same issues discussed over and over may be boring to those who hang out here every day, they're in the best interest of the site. Places go downhill, and we can track them via ongoing discussion. New people show up with fresh tips for (and unorthodox opinions of) the same old genres. Fresh opinions, tips, and sightings on every chow topic are the engine that makes the site work in the big picture, even if it doesn't always make for the most scintillating reading material for the .1% of users who participate daily. The food scene is fluid, and ongoing discussion allow us to dynamically map the fluid over time. So while this FAQ is a great helpful tool, we ask the regulars not to use it to dismiss "the same old queries" as they arise. Point people to the FAQ, but please not in a way that chokes the discussion...or makes them feel discouraged from asking questions already covered in the FAQ. Thanks! Wed Jan 01 18:39:52 -0800 2003 607395 2 The Chowhound Team 2 607405 Well, as was widely discussed in the discussion that led to this idea a couple of months back, the problem isn't that somebody says "Where can I get real Norwegian lutefisk?" and now they'll just get sent to this FAQ for deep dish pizza instead of getting an appropriate answer. Good, interesting questions get answers, and no doubt still will-- in fact I would say there's considerably more pentup demand to answer really interesting questions than there ARE interesting questions. The problem is that the questions "What's the best Chicago pizza?" or worse yet "Where should I eat?" (no price range, preferred cuisines, anything) simply aren't being answered AT ALL. The very idea for this came out of the fact that many of those queries were being ignored, and this was at least better and friendlier than that. If somebody had stepped up each time with a fierce defense of their favorite pizza place, even if it had been Pizza Hut or Domino's, I wouldn't have done it. I deliberately designed it this way so that it only answers the most basic questions explicitly, with "best" recommendations. If anyone wants more than that, they have a host of entry points into past discussions (with all their multiple viewpoints) and are explicitly invited to ask further (and more specific) questions, both of which bring them into the life of the board (past or present). To me the most off-putting thing here, especially in the absence of a really effective search function, is simply the size of this board-- it is truly an embarassment of riches. I hope lots of people, even those who've been here a while, will use the partial index I devised as a way to dig deep into the board (which, I was astonished to see, has grown enormously this past year, literally 70% of the board dates to 2002) and check out some of those now-ancient, but still quite interesting discussions. (It was interesting to see how many places that we've talked about or even been to recently had actually been posted about a year or more ago-- who remembered that Zim had talked about Han Bat a year before we had marrow soup there?) As a side note, I hope to initiate new threads on some of the areas that, as I mentioned, turned out not to have been covered fully. I think Greektown or Devon, for instance, are so familiar to the "regulars" that they've never been the subject of a really wide-ranging discussion-- and while there are lots of posts on individual Indian restaurants, Greek ones have hardly even been posted on individually. So the exercise has revealed to me, at least, some holes that can be profitably filled in the months ahead. Lastly, I certainly don't want to see the FAQ get pointed to in its current form in 2005; I plan to update it somewhat periodically, though it remains to be seen what that means exactly. So anyway, I hear ya, and believe me, most of the same thoughts went into the making of it. We'll see how it works; my hope is that it will draw some people into the board and help turn people who would have asked "What's the best pizza?" and gotten no answer into people who ask "Which is really better, Pizza DOC or Vito & Nick's?" and participate in a 40-post discussion. If it doesn't, it can be quietly forgotten. Worth a try, anyway. Wed Jan 01 19:19:46 -0800 2003 607404 0 Mike G 3 607411 You know not once but twice I've attempted to respond to this FAQ today only to lose my posts to some Internet goblin. Maybe I should let sleeping dogs lay... But I cannot! I just do not like this thing one bit. OK, I appreciate Mike's effort both in concern for the forlorn visitor and in researching a field of choices. I just do not agree with much of it, in spirit and in execution. As to our obligation, my opinion remains: interesting questions get interesting answers. Or more likely, posters who exhibit some familiarity with things get better responses than blanket, plain and vague requests. To be frank, if someone makes a response on where to eat near Michigan Avenue, it is not *our* problem if no one responds because all the poster has to do is search the board and they CAN find an answer easily. The questions have been answered. Yet, Mike wants to give THE ANSWER for pizza, hot dogs, Italian beef, etc. Now, I agree with some choices and disagree with others, but I find nothing on the list as definitive or even a consensus best. I mean I like Al's beef but there are more likely more votes for Johnny's. Some of the choices baffle me. Fine dining is such a broad category, do people really choose between Cyrano's and Tru? Trotter and Bouchon? There are many omissions when it comes to regional and stuff in the hood vs. classy places. Obviously, I have Mexican in mind when I think of what's missing, but Chinese seems way thin. Finally, there is at least one error in the links. The Kerala place is not middle eastern. I would sum up my idea of a FAQ with this proverb. You give an individual a name of a place and they eat that night. Teach them how to find places and they will eat deliciously forever more. I spent a good portion of this afternoon creating what I thought was real data within the structure of Mike's FAQ, then, like I say, poof, I lost it. Actually, the thing was getting really long. I do not necessarily think it should be one long counter-document. Rather, what I am going to do over the next year (my resolution) is provide a series of posts that give my ideas in the various categories made by MikeG. I will post them generally as separate threads to make subject line searching easy. In addition, I have asked and asked for this over and over. To me what would be of most interest to others is a list. Your top places. The places you would freak if closed. The places you could eat forever on a desert island. Instead of reducing various board voices into some mythical single voice, I'd rather see each list. Would it not be cool to compare Zim's top five to RST's, ReneG's to Joan's. Those lists could keep a lot of visitors happy for ages. VI Wed Jan 01 23:03:23 -0800 2003 607405 0 Vital Information 4 607412 >Yet, Mike wants to give THE ANSWER for pizza, hot dogs, Italian beef, etc. Sheesh, how many times and ways do I have to backpedal away from saying that I consider my Answer to be The Answer (except for people who only want one answer, quick)? I don't even like Gene & Georgetti's... or Italian beef for that matter, much... but others do and they more or less fit the criteria I laid out. I think you're looking too hard at the one recommendation part and not at the links which are the really interesting part (for anyone who's liable to be really interested). But if you don't like it, don't link to it. Doesn't seem that different to me from "the post that every visitor should read," which you did just link to, but if it doesn't work for you, don't use it. Or better yet, offer an alternative. I think it would be GREAT if you offer a countersuggestion, or a counteressay of 5000 words and 20 suggestions, for each or any or all of the categories. Let me be the first to encourage anything which contributes to the education of visitors and prevents my FAQ from seeming written in stone. That said, I think there's an audience for what I did that will NOT especially get anything out of Rene's or RST's top five, since they're just NOT going to be roaming 75th street looking for Haitian or even Lawrence and Kimball looking for quesadillas flor de la calabeza. (Or Elmwood Park, looking for Italian beef.) To use my Art Institute example again, that's like saying screw seeing the Art Institute, what you really need to do is get invited for tea at the Rubloffs' if you want to see real art. Not a very practical suggestion for the average tourist. I think there are people coming to Chicago for 5 days, who want what I spelled out, who want a pizza place that isn't the same one in Fodor's or Let's Go, not to mention isn't the same one that's in their home town; and who will not in that amount of time "learn to hunt for chow" and weep at the beauty of the handpatted tortillas, who may not share our obsession, but who nevertheless will have a better time in Chicago because of what they found on this board, old hat though those choices may seem to us. And I think it's a good thing to help them, even if their question wasn't very interestingly put. P.S. If you're going to write something loooong, do it in Word first! P.P.S. I'll check the Keralan link, that must be a mistake for something numerically similar. Wed Jan 01 23:35:33 -0800 2003 607411 0 Mike G 3 607430 Mike, yes, we understand. And it looks like you understand, too: so long as this FAQ is used as an adjunct to conversation (insofar as conversation may or may not arise), rather than a mechanism to squelch repetitive topics, we're happy. Our concern is addressed to all Chicago hounds, not just to you: please don't post "Read the damned FAQ!" replies just 'cuz you're sick of newbies asking about, say, pizza too often. Again, repetition is good in the long run, so we don't want to summarily shunt people to the FAQ. So...for example: Newbie: I'm coming to Chicago? Where should I eat? I hear the pizza's good! Chowhound Regular: I hope you get some good replies and fresh advice, but, meanwhile, you should take a look at our FAQ, which has some tips for you. Meanwhile, what sorts of foods do you crave? The more specific your question, the more likely someone will be moved to respond. Cool? Thu Jan 02 13:03:30 -0800 2003 607405 2 The Chowhound Team 1 607414 This is really wonderful. I'm on the SF board and although I love letting visitors know about all the good food in the city, when you get the 3rd request for three perfect days in SF in the same week, it gets to be wearing. As a visitor to Chicago, I'd check this out and then probably post a specific question about restuarants I was interested in. Also, it is a great resource for the local board. When I get a craving for say BBQ's pork buns, it is a pain to wade through the links or chownews to find the link. It's a nice cheat sheat and I don't see it discouraging new discussions. Thu Jan 02 01:25:06 -0800 2003 607395 0 Stanley Stephan 2 607420 Now, Stanley, don't forget that this is supposed to be a dumbed-down list for those who absolutely must have a dumbed down list. It has nothing at all to do with what is available in the city and represents only a few possible responses to certain conventional notions of what one person should eat when visiting a new city. I wrote the ff in reply to the first attempt to create such an FAQ. I think that the issues I raised have still not been addressed: "In sum, FAQs do not serve a food city of such a range of resources as Chicago very well. One would not even DREAM of doing an FAQ for Manhattan, why one for Chicago? Why box us in again when we are trying so hard to break free of simplistic categories and boxes. An FAQ list is crudely reductivist and ends up offering a blindered view of what we have. People end up thinking of us only in terms of certain stereotypical categories (hot dogs, Italian beef, deep-dish pizza etc), and not of others. And we have just barely begun to break all the stereotypes that exist out there about food in Chicago." ***** People from other boards who browse through the Chicago board casually are not aware of how truly radical, how truly revolutionary the work done here has been. I was looking through all the Chicago restaurant guidebooks (the Sherman Kaplans, the Amy Labans, the Zagats etc) at a bookstore the other day and was struck again and again at how IMPOVERISHED the REPRESENTATION of food/eating in Chicago is. There is not ONE guide out there that even attempts to break free of all this received ideas/conventional thinking. Quite ridiculously, in all of them, a thoroughly gentrified neighborhood such as Bucktown would be considered the adventurous outer limit of where one could find "alternative" dining in the city. Even an intrepid guide like TimeOut (my own preferred guide for travel in Europe) and a hiply-packaged Not-For-Tourists guide (purportedly trying to steer away from well-trodden paths) do not more than mention one or two possibilities outside Hyde Park down in the south side. This board on the other hand has broken virtually every categorical/geographical taboo that there is out there. We have had reports from the northernmost reaches of the city (SweetWillie's report on Belizean San's, Zim's on Au Rendezvous), from the far-west sides (plenty of reports from VI, Hammond etc) in the 5500W to 7000W coordinates, from the far south side. Not only have we had sightings from as far south as 106th (as well as the Croatian on 97th), we have had a comprehensive report on a previously unconsidered street (ReneG's on Commercial Avenue). Even more amazingly, a whole Chowdinner (at Le Creole) has already been held far into the southside virtually on the border of Indiana. In addition, we have had superb reports from our suburban contigent (Mugs, dickson, tony etc), not on obvious places from malled and built-up communities but precisely from those little towns (tony's Bloomingdale for instance) that one easily overlooks. What branch of the local food media has done even a tenth of this kind of eating? A list like this FAQ just reduces it all back down to the conventional limits. ***** MikeG, I know that you did a lot of work on this, but if you pull out one of your Chicago Magazine issues, you will see that this is really no more or less than the box/listing that they have there. They list one or two South American (is this all we have?), you list none. They list only one or two Africans, you list none. Like you, they are in thrall to this idea that a city MUST have Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Mexican etc to be a good food city. SEZ who? Why can't the glories of our Nigerian or our Filipino or our rich and extensive Eastern European or our Caribbean be considered the greatest jewels in our crown? Why this problematic hierarchy of values/biases? Why must we fall back to entrapping ourselves with someone else's definitions, someone else's boxes, someone else's dumb categories... Do not forget that as late as 30 years ago (perhaps as late as 20 years ago in Chicago), Japanese food was considered inedible in this country. It took a few brave souls out there to blaze the path for YOU to be able TODAY to wax poetic about Japanese duck worship. As late as 20 years ago, Thai food was considered extreme eating (too hot, too sour). But because there were people out there THEN who were willing to fight to represent it correctly, every Tom, Dick and Harry today trips over each other today to gush on and on about the "greatness" and "complexity" of it. Today, we try to fight to bring out the true greatness of misunderstood (Filipino) or yet-undiscovered (Keralan) cuisines. If we stop to try to break free of constricting boxes, how will we ever know the Truth? RST Thu Jan 02 10:31:31 -0800 2003 607414 0 RST 3 607424 Well, yeah. What's going to be really cool here (and so far my plan is working exactly according to plan, bwahahaha) is if people who think they're just looking for the obvious list (I would not use the word "dumbed down," for the aspersions it casts on the user) read all this other debate and come away with 1) RST's passion for the most farflung discoveries and 2) VI's point by point dissection of how wrong I am with alternate suggestions. I still doubt 1 out of 100 will be traipsing 75th street, indeed I question how wise it is to send visitors who don't know the city to some of its parts unawares... but who knows? At the very least, somebody will check out Maxwell Street, perhaps, or wander further up Milwaukee than Wicker Park. Or at the very least, they'll have learned how to ask a more interesting question than "In Chicago two days, where should I eat?" I know you're into film, RST, so I'll share with you a little factoid: I've run a couple of film societies. And one of the things I absolutely believed in was building audiences. And sometimes that meant lowering yourself a little to draw people in, as opposed to maintaining the intellectual integrity of the near-empty house. When I played The Hidden Fortress I trumpeted its relation to Star Wars, and got a good house out for it. Or a little less cheesy but with the same promotional impulse, you mentioned Celine et Julie-- when I played it (20 years ago) I ran an ad in the student paper completely reprinting David Thomson's piece on it from his Biographical Dictionary of Film. That made it look like something special next to the usual Thursday night French film. (Not sure that many of the audience agreed with me in the end, but then my favorite Rivette is the most conventional, La Religeuse.) In any case, both were ways of enticing people to try something a step beyond where they'd been before. People are all at different stages in their discovery of things, their willingness to experiment. The jump from Pizza Hut to pozole is likely to be as uncomprehending and unrewarding as the jump from Star Wars to Rivette, without a few steps in between. The key, I believe, is to throw out enough hooks at enough levels that there's always something to catch someone and broaden their horizons a little and move them to the next level. The popularizer serves a purpose too, and I will happily be Mencken to your Nietzsche. For some people, deep dish pizza alone is a mindblower. So hey, you visitors there, be sure to check out the links. There's some especially great stuff under Mexican by some guy named RST, and some great dim sum reports by some guy named Vital Info. Don't settle for the dumbed-down list, follow the links and check it all out. Thu Jan 02 11:14:19 -0800 2003 607420 0 Mike G 4 607428 I think I'll call you Mike "Gene Siskel" G from now on. ;) Talk about people who dumb down: don't even get me started on Gene Siskel. But it IS dumbing it down. The other issue here of course is why we always assume the worst of visitors. Why pander to the lowest common denominator? Why assume that they cannot appreciate pozole verde or Korean BBQ or Filipino kakanin (rice-cakes) and that all they want is expensive conventioneers' fare in the Loop, on Michigan Avenue, in Lincoln Park? The city has done VERY WELL indeed catering to this mindless middle-brow tourist mindset/market. We pack them in by the thousands with our massive convention business the same way we shoved cattle around in our stockyards in the 19th century. That dumbed-down crap that passes for Chicago food at Taste of Chicago is our contemporary equivalent/manifestation of the same set-up at Back-of-the-Yards once upon a time. The food sections of our newspapers keep claiming that no one in this city could appreciate anything more adventurous, as an excuse to keep publishing their numbing string of the dumbest recipes/food columns week after week. Ed Behr once famously called it the "Grilled Chicken Breast with Mango-Cilantro Chutney" symptom/mindset: pure dumbness and conventionality trying to disguise itself under a tame veneer of "difference". And this is why the discourse on food and wine in this city is so abysmal. Why serve up confirmity on a silver platter? Why be followers and not leaders and blaze a glorious trail for other people to follow. If you serve up mediocrity, people are not fooled (do you think that our people are so dumb as to be fooled by the banality of our food sections?): they just turn some other way and the discourse dies... RST P.S. Re: 75th Street Have you been there? This is as staid and middle-class as it gets: bungalows, academic types, hippies and ex-hippies etc. There's one jazz lounge, Von Freeman's Apartment Lounge, (among several music venues) that stands with the most exciting in the city. There's Lem's. There's several soul food etc. There's "alternative" eating (the soul vegetarian place run by the so-called "Hebrews"-see j3s's post on this, the funky vegetarian hole-in-the-wall run by that Trinidadian brother). And I think that that stretch of the street (Cottage Grove to about 200E) is ripe for a renaissance/city-wide recognition as a great cultural destination. RST Thu Jan 02 12:51:49 -0800 2003 607424 0 RST 5 607433 Richard, I think you, and maybe some others, are missing Mike's point. If people are REALLY into food, they will say more than 'where is a good place to eat around the Palmer House.' If they are interested in posole verde or Filipino kakanin, they will elaborate a little more in their posts and people will respond accordingly. You can tell by the simple queries of many posts that they are not as into food as you may think. If they were, they would probably take a little initiative to scroll down and figure it out for themselves. Or they would do some other research about where to eat in another city, as I do and I'm sure many other hounds do. Most of these simple queries are from people who are lazy. How many times have people posted that they need a phone number? These people are not going to make the effort to figure out how to get to 75th street. Most probably don't even want to take a cab (or at least more than a short ride). Anyhow, Mike repeatedly said this was for those simple requests (pizza, Italian beef, hot dogs, and steaks), which are many times what people specifically ask for in their posts. I'm sure that even if this FAQ list gets used, there still will be more personal responses for the more 'interesting' requests. Cheers, Al Thu Jan 02 13:45:34 -0800 2003 607428 0 Al 6 607435 Sorry to belabor this, and we suspect you already understand this, but we want to be sure the others do as well, 'cuz it's important. While, of course, no one is compelled to address any given query ("interesting" or not), we STRONGLY discourage the use of this FAQ to actually discourage discussion of repetitive, obvious, simple, or generally "less interesting" issues. Please, let it be an adjunct to discussion (insofar as it may arise). Bad: "That topic's been discussed a zillion times. Go read the FAQ" Good: "I hope your posting elicits some great fresh advice, but you may want to also go have a look at our FAQ, which provides some tips" If we can use the FAQ in this way, as an adjunct, great! If not, we could have a problem with this. Please help us spread the word! Thu Jan 02 14:03:32 -0800 2003 607433 2 The Chowhound Team 7 607438 Gee, I thought that was exactly what I just said, and I'm trying not to be bugged by being thought to have said the opposite, so let me again express unequivocal agreement with your point, as plainly as possible. I would absolutely point someone to the FAQ-- or better yet, to it, this followup discussion, and the Collected Works of Vital Information on the Errors of Mike's FAQ (forthcoming)-- with the comment that they are welcome, nay, enthusiastically encouraged, to ask further questions upon whatever they discover there, or simply refine their question a little more specifically so we know where to start answering it. (Actually, if you'll note there's an entire paragraph right at the beginning that pretty much says exactly that.) Even the slightest nudge toward something more specific than "Where should I eat?" will get Chihounds jumping from their chairs with one hand up. While I recognize the theoretical danger of the FAQ killing off a thread in its infancy, again, the reality is that it's answering questions that are going unanswered right now, and should result in a net increase in debate and returns to the site by people who right now are feeling like they didn't get anything from it. Again, if it proves to not do that, it can be quickly forgotten. Thu Jan 02 14:29:49 -0800 2003 607435 0 Mike G 8 607503 Mike, are you aware that the posting you're replying to wasn't addressed to you? Read back thru the thread, you'll see. We're all in agreement. No problem! As for the poster who finds us censorious, please be aware that Chowhound is a moderated discussion, which means we reserve right to proactively set boundaries in the discussion at our sole discretion. This is not an anarchic forum, ala Usenet. Participants must work within our framework. If this is not to your liking, please bear in mind that participation in the party we host is strictly voluntary. Thu Jan 02 23:24:29 -0800 2003 607438 2 The Chowhound Team 9 607513 No, I didn't read it that way, but thanks for the clarification. Fri Jan 03 00:08:18 -0800 2003 607503 0 Mike G 10 607533 Not sure what you mean. We were replying to a posting by Al, not by you. Again, if you'll take a sec to read back through the thread, you'll see the posting to which we were replying. We've said several times now that it's a great idea and potentially a terrific tool. We do have some concerns with how it might be used (from our perspective of having run this thing for six years), but we (and Jim) have worked to address them, and to try to reassure Vital Information, as well, to resolve problems and confusion, Sorry if our efforts left you feeling personally attacked. Certainly wasn't our intention at all. Hopefully we can return to discussing food at this point. Fri Jan 03 03:29:30 -0800 2003 607513 2 The Chowhound Team 9 607520 Well, I appreciate Joan (and others) standing up for the harmlessness, and even (imagine) possible beneficial aspect, of this idea. I think there's been a lot of rush to judgement on it, before it's even had the chance to be tried on one poor shlub who walks in here looking for deep dish pizza, and maybe we all just need to take a deep breath and actually wait for the worst to happen before we assume it will, or jump to full battle stations, big guns a-blazin' and harsh words a-flyin', on all sides. (That was my other New Year's Resolution, a David Carradine in Kung Fu like forbearance. Hey, it survived today intact.) Fri Jan 03 00:20:56 -0800 2003 607503 0 Mike G 5 607437 >I think I'll call you Mike "Gene Siskel" G from now on. ;) Talk about people who dumb down: don't even get me started on Gene Siskel. Though I have a greater resemblance to the other half of the late partnership (bizarre true fact: he lives in the mansion built by my grandfather's best friend, a famous wrestler of the 30s), I actually don't mind the comparison a bit. When I was first getting into film in the 70s, TV reviewing meant Rona Barrett and Tinkerbell ("I give Airport '75 3 bells... ding ding ding!") Siskel & Ebert were model popularizers, who in the context of giving the unwashed TV audience what they wanted (some lively wrestling over the latest Hollywood product), snuck in a great deal of what they wanted to give them for their own good-- whole shows devoted to the greatness of black and white and the evil of colorization, or the greatness of letterboxed video and the evil of pan and scan; the championing of a Hoop Dreams or a Fargo or an Eve's Bayou, network air time (brief but real) devoted to such arcana as Buster Keaton on DVD. It is, to me, an honorable thing. Anyway, I've probably been bored stiff fewer times by their recommendations than by Jonathan Rosenbaum's (he still owes me for a Chantal Akerman documentary I saw at the film festival 10 years ago). >Re: 75th Street Have you been there? Yes, I have, and I know it's quite cheerful in the 70s and 80s, and I still wouldn't send someone who doesn't know the city at all down there without at least a little advice on where to let their adventuring stop. But in any case, it's irrelevant. Most people who come here on a business trip are NOT going to go there, no matter what you tell them is there. If they make it to Chinatown from McCormick Place, that'll be something. While most people who are actually interested in exploring an area like that won't stop with the info in my FAQ and will at least check out the posts on, say, Soul Food, where they'll find more than I could have said. As I said before, if you really want information, this whole board is your FAQ and there's nothin' stoppin' ya from exploring it all or asking about pozole-- and hopefully, in fact, the links I've provided will even help a little. Thu Jan 02 14:11:41 -0800 2003 607428 0 Mike G 4 607429 I'm not a Chicago native (relegated to the well-intentioned but much-less-comprehensive resources of the DC Board), but thought I'd pipe in to say that, if nothing else, Mike G.'s FAQ has already paid off in that it's engendered this very thread, which has been fascinating, provocative, civil, well-reasoned, and, especially, inspiring -- in the sense that it makes me want to move to Chicago, or at the very least import some of you folks to become intrepid DC-area chowhounds! In particular, I would nominate Mike's latest post (#19245) for the Chowhound Hall of Fame -- except that I suspect it might soon be topped on this very thread! Thu Jan 02 12:53:53 -0800 2003 607424 0 Marty L. 3 607484 i cannot believe the crap some of you are throwing at mike. and the chowhound team is being, IMO, extremely censorious and intrusive before there's any such need. any out of towner who checks out our board is, a priori, being more adventurous than your average tourist. but with the very poor search feature of this board (no blame is being placed here, we all know that there is no money to improve it, etc.)we all should know how difficult and time consuming it is to search at all, much less quickly. with all the activity on the chicago board (a good thing), a month old post seems like a real challenge to locate, much less a year old one. not everyone wanting advice has the time or energy for a full history of chicago dining, as VI would wish. nor are they likely to have a lot of free time when they are here to explore the geographically challenged ethnic cuisines as RST would desire. i dont believe for a minute that mike's list (and the FAQ vs. Tip Sheet discussion is one big yawn, btw), will discourage the usual lively discussion. but his culling various posts into a short list of what are, after all, OUR OWN FAVORABLE REVIEWS of where to eat seems reasonable and practical and useful. i know i'm not interested in answering most of the out-of-towner queries, and i think most will find the list a useful starting point. Thu Jan 02 21:09:28 -0800 2003 607420 0 joan 1 607426 With the caveat that I am an infrequent visitor to these boards, I have a few thoughts. The advantage of Mike's FAQ is that it actually exists. For SOME visitors, it will prove more helpful than their posting a generic question that is promptly ignored by everyone because it is deemed insufficiently interesting. Whether or not you want to help such people is up to you (I certainly haven't done anything), but I'm not sure why anyone should be opposed to Mike's helping them. I doubt the existence of this list deters the truly adventurous from exploring the depth of the postings here. Put differently, if you don't like this FAQ, would the existence of a similar FAQ on say the Boston board deter you from doing exhaustive research on all Boston has to offer. Some seem opposed to the very idea of any sort of list or summary of the information here. Leaving that aside, votes on the top choices of posters here in different categories would be awfully useful. There's obviously no limitation on categories, as long as there are people with opinions on each category, so best Nigerian could be covered along with best dim sum or best Italian beef. What would be even more helpful is if such a list were annotated with, as Mike has done, references to threads where different restaurants were discussed. I know I have found myself in other cities on business with just a few minutes to figure out a place to eat. And I would have greatly valued a list of top choices of posters in other cities for various types of cuisine. Searching on this site, either through the search engine or using the browser's search function, is challenging at best. It's not too bad looking for something you've seen before, but trying to search for something you're not sure exists, is tricky. Thu Jan 02 11:41:18 -0800 2003 607395 0 DPZ 1 607434 MikeG thinks he can reduce Chicago eating down to a few pity recommendations and back-up links. I believe this misses the mark because there is no why, no basis for understanding the choices. The list does not educate the searcher, it simply leads them like lemmings to odd and arbitary choices deemed worthwhile. For someone to eat well in Chicago, they must understand the local eating scene, its dynamics and such. I would rather arm the citizen with this information instead of singular choices. So consider this the first of many background pieces to support the FAQ. The first thing then, a visitor, a newcomer or someone looking to expand their eating in Chicago should know is a general basis of the Chicago "cuisine". Chicago restaurants are influenced and guided by four situations: - The overall wealth and establishment of the population - The centrality of Chicago which has made it a leading convention city/home to a number of advertising, PR and media companies that use food as schmooze - A leading destination for immigrants - It's location in the upper midwest Vital information secret number one: Chicago is a very large, very rich city. Take a ride someday up Sheridan Road, through Evanston, Wilmette, Kenilworth, etc., through to Lake Forest and you will see evidence of how rich Chicago truly is. From Chicago's earliest days of Potter Palmer and Marshal Field through the Pritzkers and Crowns, Chicago has housed some of the countries great fortunes. Now, I have no knowledge of the dining habits of JB Pritzker or Lester Crown, but I can say this--the wealth of Chicago has made Chicago able to support fine, fine dining for years. I grabbed guide books from my collection from the 30's, 50's, 60's and 80's (I do not know if I have a good 70's version). Each one features selections of fine dining. We have always supported restaurants that aspire to greatness. In the 1970s, Le Francaise, Jovan and its successor Le Perroquet were considered among the top places in the country. James Villas called Jovan's Les Nomades the only true successor to Henri Soule's Le Pavillion. A 1983 guidebook shows that many of today's classics were already classics then. Ambria, Carlos, the Ritz Carleton Dining Room were hailed for their sublime food. The point, Chicago has always had a population that may or may not been discerning in their tastes, knowledgeable in their habits, but could at least afford the efforts at haute cuisine. The next factor that has driven Chicago's dining scene has been the conventioneer and the business diner. Chicago has always had a swath of places that gear themselves nearly wholly to the expense account eater. This is not an insult. Conventioneers and ad men do not necessarily have bad taste. Their hangouts from Irelands to Morton's have been some of the best places to eat in Chicago over the years. The key, however, is that convention dining is not adventure dining. Morton's did this better than anyone. They distilled all the appeal points, the clubbiness, the posh service, the mass meat and executed it to perfection. All of the these places do something that makes the diner feel well-off, and a big shot. More importantly, they make the diner feel like they have eaten at this establishment a hundred times in the past regardless of how many times the person has ever been there. It produces comfort, not grandeur. Next, people come here. I think they come here because others did before them. Chicago is not necessarily a logical place for immigrants to debark. Which is why you will see a crew of landscapers wearing wool coats nearly into July. Yet, they have come and come and come. The saws are more Poles than any city but Warsaw, out Bohemian Prague, second largest Mexican population, etc., etc. Ignore the reality of these axioms. We are truly, hugely diverse. Even groups with little numerical presence seem to make commercial presence. Look at the Belizian restaurants, Senegalese, Kerala. Our Chinese population has supported a new wave of places that give us product on par with any more notable Chinatown. We are hugely blessed with variety. Yet, we are Chicago. I believe that Chicago is a great resturant town, but hardly a great eating town. Chicago sits inland. We do not seem to hold the same reverance for food that you find on the coasts. Perhaps because on the coasts people have more connection to their food. It comes from nearby, from people nearby, that eat with more gusto. Our state actually sits on some of the greatest farmland in the world. Too great. So, great that nearly all the farmland in Illinois has been devoted to mega agriculture. We are not the state of fisherman's wharf; we are the state of Archer-Daniels Midland. Divorced from local sources, we have no local cuisine. There is no such thing as Chicago food. Or is there. We are surely the second city. We must have a Chicago pizza, a Chicago hot dog, the biggest, the best. So, yes, we do have many food items that are unique to Chicago or best achieved in Chicago, but how native are these things. Look at "Chicago" pizza. Who eats day in day out at Uno's of Gino's East? Tourists seeking Chicago pizza. What does that say. These four factors--rich people, business dining, immigration and location--drive Chicago dining. Understand them and you are on your way to understanding where to eat when. VI Thu Jan 02 14:02:26 -0800 2003 607395 0 Vital Information 2 607440 Hold your horses. I was JUST about to post on fresh wasabi and the Pritzkers' eating habits (their sushi fanaticism, which influenced the superior material available at the sushi bar at the hotel) when this thread took over. I'll get to it for Gary when I have a minute. Re: conventioneers do not necessarily have bad taste Conventioneers drive the business even at places like Trotters and Tru. Every 4-star restaurant has a convention calendar chart to use for staff scheduling etc. Every top waiter/captain/manager in this city knows when Manufacturers and so on come in year after year. Yet we pretend that they need to be herded. RST P.S. Reply to MikeG in the post below: How could you not ADORE everything Chantal has done. She is God, you know. ;) Thu Jan 02 14:36:04 -0800 2003 607434 0 RST 2 607441 Now THAT's a Chowhound response. I'm still not sure where to order a pizza after it, but it's a great response. Although I think you give short shrift to the important role of Jovan Trboyevic's temper in driving promising young chefs (like the Too Hot Tamales) out of Chicago.... And I love finding out that we owe the sushi scene to the Pritzkers. Reminds me of that scene in Christopher Buckley's Thank You For Smoking where the protagonist meets with some Michael Ovitz type Hollywood demigod and gets deep-sea sushi specially culled from the Marianas Trench. Oh, to be so insanely rich that you have to do things like that to be hipper than your colleagues! Thu Jan 02 14:48:22 -0800 2003 607434 0 Mike G 3 607444 I didn't say that they created the sushi scene. Just trying to explain the international market/channels for fresh wasabi for Gary. But don't jump ahead of me. Thu Jan 02 14:54:22 -0800 2003 607441 0 RST 2 607442 VI, I've been reading along, and I don't think "MikeG thinks he can reduce Chicago eating down to a few pity recommendations and back-up links." He's just creating a handy tool. As long as it doesn't serve as a substitute for ever-replenished opining, it can't hurt. I think the problem you have, and that our moderators have, is with the term "FAQ". It implies 1. that the info is somehow definitive (wheras the chow scene is big and ever-changing), and 2. that people should consult this file BEFORE asking questions, to avoid conversations retreading old ground (whereas repetition is necessary to replenish our resource). So...my proposed solution is: What say we call it the Chicago Tip Sheet? That way, it's more clearly just a tool, not some monolithic, frozen dictum supplanting further conversation. A Baltimore chowhound compiled a Baltimore Tip Sheet a few years ago, and it's great. I use it myself sometimes. See link below (not that the Chicago one has to be in the same format) Mike, does this work for you? ciao Link: http:/www.chowhound.com/writing/baltimoretip.html Thu Jan 02 14:48:56 -0800 2003 607434 0 Jim Leff 3 607443 Just don't call it late for dinner! Fine by me, I actually put the word "visitor" in there to try to make it clear that it wasn't attempting to be the be-all and end-all of Chicago chow (likewise "unofficial"), more like a guidebook's short list, but left "FAQ" in because it seemed the easiest way to sum it up. Strictly speaking, I suppose it's not a FAQ in the classic Internet sense. Thu Jan 02 14:53:02 -0800 2003 607442 0 Mike G 4 607446 How about you,VI? Am I correct in figuring this addresses most of your concern? Thu Jan 02 15:07:57 -0800 2003 607443 0 Jim Leff 5 607447 To be honest no, but I would like to maintain the vestiges of remaining friendship I have with Mike... As I have already said, I believe it is difficult to reduce certain dining areas to one singular arch-type. It has nothing to do with Mike's choices per se, but there is just no consensous in these things. Why should Lou Malnatti's get set in stone as the standard bearer for Chicago pizza. If it is better that Gino's East or Uno's it is by matters of degree not by leaps and bounds. It just bugs the hell out of me that we can in any way nominate such a place. I mean the Baltimore tip sheet does not list THE place for crabs or crabcakes, why should we? And I do not believe you can hide behind claims that the guide or the FAQ or whatever is a starting out point. It cannot possibly be that by nature of logistics. What becomes of the thread, of its searchability, its usefulness, if one response is to the pizza paragraph, another to fine dining, etc. In addition, the whole point of this thing is specifically supposed to be an abbreviated list, a guide. We cannot run from what it claims to be. Mike defends his list as being more than what you'd find in Fodor's or Zagat's or such, but is it really? Obviously, a hot tip for deep dish pizza is not going to stretch the limits, so it is with a bit of gumption that long standing places like Malnati's or Gene and Georgetti's can be claimed as idiosyncratic. I also wholly disagree with the claim that posters have no interest in roaming beyond the most central portions of downtown Chicago. At least a strong portion of people on Chowhound are united by their desire to go where the delicious begins. For instance, does a visitor really want to eat fancy-schancy chef-centric Mexican food as can be found more and more in big cities, or do they want hearty, authentic items seldom seen outside of the Mexican federation? Would not a FAQ, a tip sheet be pointing just as strong to these kind places? Again, do not masquerade that it is in the links, because that defeats the purpose of the document. Mexican is reduced to one selection. This is what people reading the FAQ are going to believe is the guidepost for Mexican dining in Chicago. And that is where I will add my 2 cents, explaining what Mexican dining in Chicago really means, why it is not just one place. But we can agree to disagree. Most people like this thing (as evidenced by the posts). It has inspired me to write at length on what I thinke *really* should be in the FAQ, so yea everything is copacetic. VI Thu Jan 02 15:46:30 -0800 2003 607446 0 Vital Information 6 607449 To be honest-- and VI is the only one who has suggested doing this so far-- what I expected as response was a series of counter-lists (including for the categories that I so callously ignored). That would be cool, and certainly demonstrate how my list is hardly to be thought of as final, definitive, or set in stone (or even Corian). Anyone? Anyone? Should I start with my own list? By the way, I looked at the Baltimore list way back when, and started in a similar format, but ultimately decided that that was much more limiting because it's just long enough to make it seem like any place that isn't on the list is a second-rater, something that obviously isn't true when only one place can be chosen. I guess to me picking one is so obviously arbitrary that I thought it would invite lots of response of the "No, not Malnati's, X" type. But not for Hounds to be so merely practical when there are great philosophical issues to hash out... Mike's Personal, Anywhere In Town, As Opposed To Mike's Official, Touristville Mainly List 1) The Art of Pizza 2) Don't really like Italian beef that much 3) Superdawg, yea! 4) Ruth's Chris 5) Erwin 6) La Bocca della Verita 7) Chilpancingo 8) Moon Palace 9) Wishbone And yours would be... Thu Jan 02 16:09:04 -0800 2003 607447 0 Mike G 7 607457 For the record, Mike, I am torn by the arguments about the appropriateness of such a list on this board--"great philosophical issues" indeed. Practically speaking, I think the list will do little (as some fear) to quash discussion, and I think it can certainly be helpful for many. I applaud your effort, while reserving great sympathy for the attached post by the since-departed (for good now?), much-missed Harry V. on the use of such a list. More to the point, what particularly do you recommend at The Art of Pizza. I recently tried a slice of deep dish and a slice of thin, one cheese and one pepperoni (don't remember which was which). The thin was unmemorable, the deep dish pretty good but not mind-blowing. I've heard raves about this place and am eager to try for better. Any particular recommendations? Thanks, Aaron Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/110564#596943 Thu Jan 02 16:53:26 -0800 2003 607449 0 Aaron D 8 607463 I recommend... not having a slice. I tried them a couple of times and thought little of the results after they'd been in the usual countertop Pizza Dehydrator for an hour before being reheated. Finally, out of boredom with all my other local choices, I ordered a fresh one for delivery and was very pleasantly surprised with the fresh and bright flavor of the tomato sauce. (I never order Italian sausage, so I don't know what awful thing RST discovered there.) Then the Trib went and ruined it as my secret fave (though they still haven't discovered La Gondola).... Is it awesomely, world-class good? Heck, I don't know. It's the one I routinely order, but then I live close by. It's fine by me. I talk people into it instead of Gino's or Leona's, and they're happy afterwards. Life is good. As for Harry's arguments against a list... again, I'm not averse to helping people who have a very mild interest in this, want to ask one question, and to my mind deserve a straight answer, not scorn, for being that tiny bit more adventurous than the average, who would eat at Maggiano's and come away convinced they'd had a real Chicago experience. (That was Harry in elitist mode; by contrast while compiling the list I just reread him in populist mode, blasting Zim for not thinking Tiffin was great Indian because it wasn't unsanitary enough for his pretentious reverse food snob tastes, or something like that. Of course now we'd know that Zim didn't like Tiffin's food simply because it wasn't spicy enough to discolor the silverware upon contact.) I had a question about piano rolls once. (My grandmother's uncle cut them, that is, played the piano that made the marks that served as the stencil for the mass-produced ones.) I joined the Mechanical Music Digest to ask it. I was treated very nicely, even though I've never had another question to ask and in some quarters, I'm sure, I'm just another of those damn dilettantes who doesn't TRULY love and appreciate player pianos the way I should. Whatever. Thu Jan 02 18:08:43 -0800 2003 607457 0 Mike G 9 607468 Good to know about Art of Pizza--I wish it were close enough to be the one I routinely order from--there's a Leona's very close to me (Elston and Kimball) that I refuse to order from, and haven't really found a good spot yet. Art of Pizza has been just a drive-by sort of thing. Maybe I'll make the drive and take home the pie one of these days. As for your comment > I understand, and I'm sure you must be weary of explaining yourself over and over again. I thought you made yourself perfectly clear the first time around, and again, I applaud your effort. I take it as a gesture of simple decency rather than a philosophical issue regarding the nature of chowhound. Thu Jan 02 18:33:25 -0800 2003 607463 0 Aaron D 10 607471 I've tried a few in your neck of the woods (since it's just NW of me)-- Golden Crust was okay once, I just tried the Caponie's on Montrose and it wasn't nearly as good as the Harlem original is in my memory. There's a place with a name like "Trattoria Pizzeria Roma" (though it's not that) on Irving there somewhere near all the tile places that I've been tempted to try just to see if it lives up to a name grander than "Bub's Pizza." And you shouldn't be too far from that Marie's place on Lawrence that came up once. Have you tried any of those? Thu Jan 02 18:46:47 -0800 2003 607468 0 Mike G 10 607473 >>I wish it were close enough to be the one I routinely order from--there's a Leona's very close to me (Elston and Kimball) that I refuse to order from, and haven't really found a good spot yet.<< Have you tried La Villa, on Pulaski north of Addison? I haven't tried it but a friend praises both their thin and stuffed styles of pie. This friend's other touchstone for stuffed pizza is Suparossa (the one in Portage Park), which I have tried and thought was darn good - its brightly acidic sauce reminded me of Art of Pizza's, interestingly enough, and its crust was beautifully cooked to a lovely, crisp dark brown without the least hint of burning. The topping ingredients were underseasoned, however. Thu Jan 02 19:08:53 -0800 2003 607468 0 Harry V. 11 607492 Also in the area is Pizzeria La Roma. I have not had their pizza, but the one time we ate there, they served a bucatini all' amatriciana that my husband pronounced good, and it's one of his favorites that I make regularly. We haven't returned, not because the food wasn't good, but the restaurant was full of a kind of religious art that made me feel like I was eating in my grandmother's bedroom. And we rarely order pizza in, and when we do I've learned to keep my mouth shut about pizza in general. Based on the bucatini, the pizza might be worth a shot. La Roma 3213 W Irving Park Rd Chicago, IL 60618-3301 Phone:(773)478-0467 Thu Jan 02 22:14:48 -0800 2003 607473 0 annieb 12 607511 From the name and address, that must be the place I was thinking of with the name like Trattoria Pizzeria Roma. Fri Jan 03 00:06:22 -0800 2003 607492 0 Mike G 13 607524 Let us know how the pizza is. Fri Jan 03 00:37:50 -0800 2003 607511 0 annieb 10 607495 Aaron, Pete's on Western, 1 1/2 or 2 blocks north of Addison has very good thin crust pizza, esp. with italian Beef. It you use the pick up area in the back (at least during the afternoon), the unbelievably crabby women do a Johnnie's Italian Beef Nazi imitation. Don't leave the door open and don't ask for anything. It's worth sitting in one of the two chairs watching them abuse the Lane kids coming in for slices. Cheers, Al Thu Jan 02 22:25:55 -0800 2003 607468 0 Al 10 607541 Thanks for all the suggestions--I'll try to address all comers in a single post, rather than scatter it amongst you all. Mike G, I haven't, remarkably, tried any of your suggestions, for all of which I am thankful. I do believe that the Roma place you mention is the same as that mentioned by annieb. That, along with Al's suggestion of Pete's, are next on my list to try. Harry V., welcome back! I have tried La Villa, and for a short time it was our pizza of choice. It's not bad, it's even a little bit good, but I still felt like I was just eating it because I needed to eat it, rather than because I really enjoyed it. It just wasn't a "Wow, they've got great pizza!" kind of place. Perhaps I sound to picky, but with pizza places dotting the city like taquerias, a really great neighborhood pie seems like not too much to ask. Plus, my wife wasn't crazy about it. Regarding Superossa, I've eaten at their Streeterville location (not the pizza), and I was woefully unimpressed. Plus, I'm not much of a deep dish guy. I have also tried Nancy's Pizza on Elston, which was horrible, and (a bit far afield), a branch of Rosati's, I think on Milwaukee to the northwest. Going that far is too far (though in the other direction it does bring Bubamara into play, along with Pizza DOC which I have yet to try). I think there's also a place called Manzo's on Irving Park that I have yet to try, but I have stopped into Shamino's on the corner of Irving Park and California. It is in a strip mall in the shadow of a 7-11, run by an Indian family (I think) who owns both the restaurant and the convenience store. I picked up a slice once in a fit of hunger on the way home from St. Ben's, and I'll be damned if it wasn't quite enjoyable. I promise the same experience to no one, but I am eager to explore further. Thanks, all, for your help. Aaron Fri Jan 03 10:13:03 -0800 2003 607468 0 Aaron D 11 607595 >>Plus, I'm not much of a deep dish guy.<< Oh, I misunderstood. And me neither, for that matter. Pizzeria D.O.C. is probably not close enough to be your neighborhood joint, has disorganized service and costs a bit too much. But those wonderfully thin, Italian-style pizzas (Roman, we're told), are really good. I like the porcini and the potato-rosemary best of all, I think. Just don't expect a typical thickish Chicago-style thin-crust pizza. Or much basil on your margherita. In my book, best of breed for Chicago-style thin is still Home Run Inn. And Pat's is the north side thin I most enjoy. In other words, I guess I can't help you. Fri Jan 03 18:03:29 -0800 2003 607541 0 Harry V. 12 607599 Yes, Pizzeria D.O.C. gets consistently good marks, though I haven't yet tried it and it is, alas, a bit beyond the bounds of my neighborhood. The best pizza I've had in town, actually, is Bricks on Lincoln, mentioned incidentally in the current Local Palate's article on best non-Chicago pizzas in Chicago, along with D.O.C., Nick and Vito's, and a handful of others. Fri Jan 03 18:34:46 -0800 2003 607595 0 Aaron D 13 607603 Although I have complained about DOC service in the past, the last time we went (a month ago maybe) they actually had their act together at the beginning of a busy Saturday night. That said, it's not a delivery place, so it doesn't help with the traditional question. You know who else has a surprisingly good Italian-style pizza? I know what I'm setting myself up for here (and this thread has been so peaceful so far), but I'm going to say it anyway. The three or so pizzas in that style that (gasp) California Pizza Kitchen offers are way, way better than the pizza candy that they mostly sell, and quite similar to DOC's. Anyway, in the dot com days when we'd order from there at night, that was what I always insisted they include in the order, and I made a few converts away from Key Lime Pizza or PB&J Pizza or whatever they usually pack the suckers in for. (That is, assuming they still have them; haven't been to CPK since the Nasdaq fell.) Fri Jan 03 19:32:25 -0800 2003 607599 0 Mike G 14 607622 Perhaps here is the germ of the problem. The pizza of my dreams, my youth, was unavailable for delivery. Sat Jan 04 00:00:55 -0800 2003 607603 0 annieb 14 607786 Apart from DOC, Gioco has good authentic pies. You must have found a better CPK than any I've ever tried. I don't think the dough is right at all -- too springy, and the flour too soft. For the spring, I guess that they add honey (which I know Spago does to create the same "problem" of overactivated yeast -- some like it, I don't). Tue Jan 07 12:24:57 -0800 2003 607603 0 JeffB 13 610056 Thought you might like to see how its offshoot in California's wine country is faring. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/33239#148133 Tue Dec 21 04:22:09 -0800 2004 607599 0 Melanie Wong 9 607539 "Of course now we'd know that Zim didn't like Tiffin's food simply because it wasn't spicy enough to discolor the silverware upon contact." sorry to keep going back to this, but Tiffin exemplifies to me the problem with the more "upscale" indian restuarants around town: Far enough away from its roots to have lost its soul, but not far enough away to make the distance interesting hell, I don't even like their chai, they have a nice ceiling though. If you want that sort of food go down the block to sher-a punjab (which is fairly mild, i've taken their chicken tikka to my son's fourth grade class)and get better quality for less money. Fri Jan 03 10:06:01 -0800 2003 607463 0 zim 10 607545 Zim writes, "sorry to keep going back to this, but Tiffin exemplifies to me the problem with the more "upscale" indian restuarants around town: Far enough away from its roots to have lost its soul, but not far enough away to make the distance interesting" Now, there is at least one place now that is trying to take Indian food far enough away to be interesting. Has anyone been to Monsoon or have any other word on it? Citysearch does a brief report on this attempt of upscale Indian fusion oriented food (ala Tabla in NYC?) Link: http://chicago.citysearch.com/review/35186535/editorial/ Fri Jan 03 11:15:30 -0800 2003 607539 0 Vital Information 9 609976 So La Gondola has a secret following and its not just my little place for the best pizza in the city? La Gondola has 2 special pizzas everyone should try they are unique!! Their sauce has a zest I really like and the salt content is not as high as others: read: I dont wake up in the middle of the night dying of thirst. The other items on their menu are outstanding. I crave their Chicken Parmisian!! The coating on the chicken is delicious and the sauce is better than my grandmas! Wed Sep 10 16:33:53 -0700 2003 607463 0 Tim 8 607543 Most of the opposition to Mike's proposal amounts to the obvious caveat that anyone should keep in mind when approaching recommendations: There can't possibly be a definitive list that works for everyone. That said, what's the harm of the FAQ or whatever it's called? Is the risk that a visitor might be mislead any more than is involved in the fact that she might not know how to articulate what she's looking for, or that he happens to ask the question on a day/time that gets one set of responses when another day/time might result in a different set? I suspect the real opposition is not based on the fear of misleading a visitor as much as it is that certain sacred truths will be profaned. There's a strong whiff of orthodoxy in the opposition to this FAQ proposal, as there is in Harry V's unequivocal statement that these boards are not meant for one-time visitors. Meant by whom? I wasn't aware that there was an original intent of the founders that we had to follow. I've been helped very much, as a one-time visitor, by responses to questions I've posed on the Portland (OR) and LA boards. That doesn't mean I accepted them unquestioningly. The implication of Harry V's statement is that the regular posters to this board constitute a council of elders whose collective wisdom must be absorbed by a careful course of study over time. Only the initiated can really see The Truth, and the unwashed from Peoria can bugger off to Fodor's. Fri Jan 03 11:03:33 -0800 2003 607457 0 Mike M 9 607547 Maybe you do need an official FAQ: a list of frequently asked questions. But rather than answers, an informative discussion on how to find what has been said on these topics before and glean the information from this board that you would have looked for if you knew it was there and understood how to find it. That way, someone who posted a frequently asked question could be invited to read the FAQ and use it as a research tool to help them find the sort of place they were looking for in the neigborhood they are in. It would take a book to answer every question, and all possible books would be controversial. Fri Jan 03 11:28:40 -0800 2003 607543 0 ironmom 9 607548 I've been struggling with whether to respond to this or faq thing or not, in fact i wrote a rather long response last night that got lost when my computer crashed. I also object to it, and think you misread harry v.'s point it's not that you have to be a constant visitor or constant poster to get use out of this board you don't but you get a much more rich use of the board if you do take the time to get a feel for the folks posting the info (for instance you won't look for recommendations for pizza from me)and you'll know tht harry v. and I have stong difference of opinion on indian food for instance and your tastes might match his more closely than any sort of board consensus. It is also this idea of consensus that i find troubling about the Mike's tip sheet - I don't really think that much exists around his picks (I know i don't share most of them) and even if it did we're talking about a consensus of very few regular posters. For someone who wants to choose between a few options listed in the frommer's guide, fine, but I thought the idea behind chowhound was to search out deliciousness anyware not to limit the parameters of discussion to those places and categories most convenient to those visiting the art institute. Anyway, I do really appreciate the spirit of generosity behind his post as i did when i initially objected to an earlier similar sort of summary tip sheet put together by Dave Hammond (Folks who are visiting may want to look at that one as well, it's got the owrd "eternal" in the title) Btw, the search function on the main page does work now, try it and you might find a thread for greektown. Fri Jan 03 11:33:21 -0800 2003 607543 0 zim 10 607568 I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it still doesn't speak to the problem of Tim from Tulsa, who simply wants two or three recommendations for Mexican food and hasn't the time to get to know all the Chicago Chowhounds. Mike G's proposal was specifically for purposes of responding to visitor inquiries. Ironmom's idea (kind of a giant set of indices) is a good one, but a herculean task. Actually, the more I think about this whole thing, I've come to either 1) Never mind or 2) You say tomayto I say tomahto, let's call the whole thing off. Fri Jan 03 13:29:45 -0800 2003 607548 0 Mike M 11 607574 NOOO! You misunderstand! Just a list of questions and a discussion on how to use the boards to see how they've been answered before. No links... That way it won't really need to ever be updated. Fri Jan 03 15:52:44 -0800 2003 607568 0 ironmom 12 607794 Thanks for the clarification---that's definitely doable. Tue Jan 07 16:08:52 -0800 2003 607574 0 Mike M 10 607575 All right, I really and truly wasn't going to say another thing about this since I think it long ago became a debate about the debate about the debate and I have an urgent player piano question to go ask, but I feel so misrepresented in Zim's post that I have to state for the record that: - "you get a much more rich use of the board if you do take the time to get a feel for the folks posting the info" Yes, and there's NOTHING stopping you from doing just that, and maybe, just maybe, extend me the tiniest bit of credit here, the person who just pops in here MIGHT just discover more of what the folks posting the info think and have to say when they look through my set of links which, if I do say so myself, were chosen with some care precisely to represent some of the more interesting points of view and posts and the diversity of opinion on same, in an effort to offer something that merely searching for "Mexican" or "Dim Sum" would not serve up so neatly. Remember how it took five tries over a week to find a particular VI post on Dim Sum at Shui Wah or Mountain View or whatever (because it was under the heading "Irish breakfast in Tinley Park" or some damn thing?) Well, it's under "dim sum" now, thank you very much. - "It is also this idea of consensus that i find troubling about the Mike's tip sheet - I don't really think that much exists around his picks (I know i don't share most of them)" Gee, and I voted for a bunch of people in the last election who didn't win, what's up with that? If you look at how I defined consensus, it was more in a negative or at least minimal sense (as in, I don't think too many people would passionately argue against Malnati's as a good representative of classic Chicago pizza, if that's what you want) and not the positive sense that I felt certain that at least 51% of posters would absolutely choose Malnati's as #1. And if you look at what I actually wrote, I hedged the living hell out of everything in exactly the way that everyone is now saying I didn't do. Anyway, for the million and first time, I really wish at least some of the response to Mike's Absolute List was Mike Is Full Of It, The Best Pizza is Really X, not Mike Is Full of It Because I Disagree With the Procedure. That's what would be interesting for visitors, no? If you do post such a thing, please label it clearly enough that the poor shlubs who visit this thread can pick it out from all the ones debating how I should have done it (or not done it at all). Thanks. - "but I thought the idea behind chowhound was to search out deliciousness anyware not to limit the parameters of discussion to those places and categories most convenient to those visiting the art institute." I wasn't aware I had changed the entire purpose of the site. It all still comes up on my computer, I don't get a big 404 Notice redirecting me to the FAQ alone. You know it only says "visitor FAQ" right in the title as well as stressing that point about 10 times in the first 10 lines. I don't know how much clearer I could be about the intended limitations of the information, that's about as logical as saying a Best Pizza list gives short shrift to Chinese food. Frankly, the only attempted "limiting" of discussion here seems to be aimed at me. -when i initially objected to an earlier similar sort of summary tip sheet put together by Dave Hammond (Folks who are visiting may want to look at that one as well, it's got the owrd "eternal" in the title) I know an easier way to find it. Look in my FAQ. It's the very last item. What do you know. Did anyone actually LOOK at the damn thing, or did they just jump to the first recommendation or two before starting in on me? Fri Jan 03 16:02:19 -0800 2003 607548 0 Mike G 11 607620 I looked, and cut and pasted a few times, and was pleasantly surprised to find my own recommendation of Cyrano's (a place I regularly hype) multi-course dinner option, which I still think is a great take on the fix price menu. And, Cyrano's has a daily foie gras special. Thanks, Mike. Fri Jan 03 23:57:36 -0800 2003 607575 0 annieb 7 607458 Off-topic: Art of Pizza? Ya gotta be kidding! Have you tasted that weird WHITE colored emulsified meat product they call Italian sausage? RST Thu Jan 02 16:57:11 -0800 2003 607449 0 RST 8 607461 No, I don't think I have. Good tomato sauce though, tastes of fresh spices, not a five pound can of them dried for two years. Thu Jan 02 17:48:49 -0800 2003 607458 0 Mike G 9 607467 Ahem. They use dried spices. Very creative use of a variety of dried spices. Crumbled on top of the sauce (which is, in the Chicago deep-dish manner, on top of the cheese). When I came to consider this pizza, I didn't deduct points for the use of dried spices bec it was so well-done. But it WAS still dried spices. Excellent tomato sauce: bright flavors, unafraid to go on the acidic side of the spectrum, which earns points with me. Very stringey cheese of good quality. Rather soggy bottom layer of crust. Delicious but ultimately quite boring white-bread-type pastry. It's too white and dainty and airy: a little airier and it would almost be the texture of cotton candy. Again, I was shocked that they would use that white-colored flavorless emulsified meat product and call it Italian sausage. Unacceptable. Ultimately though, what sinks this pizza for me is the fact that it has no character at all. It's excellent and well-made, but so? It has no presence, no heft, no memorability. And those are the qualities-above and beyond excellence of technique or superiority of raw materials-that I value most in a pizza. (Incidentally, the Tribune voted The Art of Pizza the best deep-dish cheese pizza in the city in late-2001. Apparently, they considered and reviewed 100 diff places, including, presumably Old Chicago on 79th and Halsted. Mssrs. Rice and Vettel and Ms. Haddix made the final decision. The article is searchable, I think, through metromix.) RST Thu Jan 02 18:26:00 -0800 2003 607461 0 RST 10 607472 I didn't mean they didn't use dried spices. I guess what I meant is, they don't use spices that were dried for use on the Byrd expedition to the Pole and recovered 60 years later, like so many pizza places do. Whatever they did, it had flavors I had only enjoyed as colors for many years on many pizzas. You use the word excellent twice even as you ultimately condemn them. I don't disagree that the search for nirvana continues, but until Vito & Nick's delivery area expands wide enough to include Roscoe Village, I guess that'll do. Thu Jan 02 18:52:24 -0800 2003 607467 0 Mike G 11 607705 So you’re a fan of Vito & Nick’s too? Do you know you can buy frozen pizzas at Vito & Nick’s II? I haven’t had the frozen ones yet but some day I’ll have to give them a try. I ate at Vito & Nick’s II once and thought it was pretty close to the original. Does anyone have any experience with the frozen pies? Apparently there is now another Vito & Nick’s II in Orland Park (why didn’t they at least call it IIb?). Vito & Nick’s II 9644 S Roberts Rd Hickory Hills IL 708-430-2800 Vito & Nick’s II 54 Orland Square Dr Orland Park IL 708-460-8520 Link: http://www.vitoandnicks.com/ Sun Jan 05 19:43:03 -0800 2003 607472 0 Rene G 12 607715 Actually, I just used it as an illustration of the unattainable (that a delivery area would ever stretch from Hickory Hills or Orland Park to Roscoe Village...) I do keep meaning to check it out, as an example of foldable pizza or whatever, but I have yet to find myself close enough to either of those suburbs at a time with the right company to persuade to go check it out, alas. So the II's are both in the burbs and the actual Vito & Nick's (I) is somewhere else, still in some far southern part of the city I assume? Sun Jan 05 21:14:49 -0800 2003 607705 0 Mike G 10 607493 No less a cook than Edna Lewis prefers some spices dried to fresh (thyme, for instance). And one of the women who taught me to cook did too, but always good, aromatic dried thyme, and crushed in your palm first. Let's refrain from blanket judgments. Ahem. Thu Jan 02 22:18:33 -0800 2003 607467 0 annieb 8 607562 Richard, if sausage is supremely important to your pizza experience, I have two recs that are not very Chowhound, but do have the best sausage (much better than AoP), IMO: Pizano's on Clark and Pequod's on Clybourn, esp. the latter. Don't blame me if you make the mistake of dining in at either establishment. But for takeout or delivery, they fit the bill. Two takeout window places, Carreno's on Addison near Damen and the sometimes mentioned Red Tomato under the Southport Brown Line stop are ok too. Fri Jan 03 12:41:35 -0800 2003 607458 0 JeffB 3 607445 shoot, let me do that link again Link: http://www.chowhound.com/writing/baltimoretip.html Thu Jan 02 15:03:43 -0800 2003 607442 0 Jim Leff 2 607454 So the years I endured of people in the Twin Cities bragging that it was the cultural center of the upper midwest was just misinformed bragadocio :-) Thu Jan 02 16:33:19 -0800 2003 607434 0 annieb 2 607481 Very interesting info, VI. I think this particular post should be included in any, ahem, tip sheet. But I think both you and RST miss the point which Mike has stated a number of times. There is an audiance for this and they don't want to be educated. Living in SF, I tell every darn tourist that going to Fisherman's Wharf is a waste of time, foodwise and sightseeing-wise. There are more beautiful views and better food. But what first time vistor can go home and say they didn't see the wharf. People NEED to do the cliches. Where a Chowhound list differs from Zagut is that the recommendations come from a community that really understands a passion for good food. I got that Mike isn't saying any of these is a chowhound ultimate, but enough hounds have said some good things about the place in the past. If I'm on a business trip to Chicago, I'm too busy to explore the neighborhoods. Sometimes I never make it out of the hotel and have to do with room service. If I'm going to eat, it will be downtown. While I consider myself a hound, my job pays for my food. If it's a choice of getting a few hours sleep and being alert at work the next day or traipsing around the area for food, sorry, I'm not that devoted. And if I eat in Chicago in a brief stay, believe me it ain't going to be Philipino. I WANT Polish. I WANT Pizza. I WANT a decent steak. I WANT a hot dog. I can't get these back home. (I really, really want Polish. We just have one miserable restuarant in SF). In New York I want deli and pizza. In Baltimore I want crab. In Philly I want Cheesesteak. In Connecticut I want grinders. In New England I want clams. Sorry, no matter how great, I'm not eating Mexican in Boston. I know these places are all more than their cliches, but these are the spots that do a particular food best. I sort of like the one restuarnt suggestion with links to other disucssion. Not everyone on this board is a chowhound. If the poster is not a hound, they'll go with the suggested restuarnnt. And they may even learn a little. Embarrisingly I never kenw about Italian Beef in Chicago. A hound will check out the links which will lead to a little more exploring the board. I guess it is living in a tourist town that makes me jaded. There's a good number of folks looking for the best clam chowder in a hollowed out sourdough loaf on Fisherman's wharf (shuder, shudder). For that type, with the one suggestion at least they'll be eating more houndworthy food than they find in Zagut. As to just searching the board, I think you know your board well. But go to an unfamiliar board and try to search through it. While it can be pleasant, it is quite time consuming. Say you want Mexican food in LA. Go search the board, tell me how long it takes you and then report back. I also think it is a more comprehensive beginning place than the reply a visitor gets to the question "I'm in Chicogo for the weekend where do I eat". Those replies, as Mike says, get limited response. So the poster is at the mercy of whoever is kind enough to reply. If they get referred to the tip sheet IN ADDITION (chowhound team) to any meager response they may get, I think they will be better off. So I still say a pat on the back to Mike. Hang in there buddy. I look forward to version 1.0 of the "Tip" sheet. And don't forget to put a link about Polish food in there, ok? Thu Jan 02 20:32:19 -0800 2003 607434 0 Stanley Stephan 2 607566 In doing my research for the supporting documentation, I found something on the Internet on "how to eat like a Chicagoan" I've linked below. It is a very good introduction to some of the issues related to eating in Chicago, at least mostly at the cheap level. The document is a bit dated. At least one of the listings, that for Jim's Hot Dog Stand is off, so double check before following anything in their listings. VI Link: http://www.chicagorestaurant.com/show_article.php?aID=13 Fri Jan 03 13:08:19 -0800 2003 607434 0 Vital Information 2 607626 As usual, I'm late to the discourse... As a frequent visitor, both to downtown and the burbs from Midway up Harlem Ave and on to Rosemont, my chicago biz acquaintances--all of whom live in Chicago--are always laughing and asking me for restaurant tips. From now on, however, I will email them the link to this FAQ. Since I stay downtown only three or four times a year, the FAQ info about downtown is like a chowhound power bar. An absolutely terrific piece of work. One to add: I too, as I began to read the thread, hoped to see more 'lists'. I wish I could add my own, but the only thing new I think I can add is about a Korean restaurant in a small strip mall at the corner of Algonquin and Buice I was taken to by a Korean colleague. The food is cooked with sterling precision and stellar freshness; and has a compact moderne interior scheme featuring white curved half walls between the bbq-equipped tables, and a tiny five seat full bar at the front. Sorry, I didn't get the name. The julienned raw beef with sesame oil, ginger, scallions atop shredded daikon radish, the Kal-bi, and the soon-dobu (soft tofu) jigae were outstanding, as were the quality and variety of side dishes. Otherwise... --Johnnie's (geez, I never have a problem ordering at the counter, I just remember how I required waitrons to call their orders to me--quickly, concisely and always the same way--when I cooked on the line) --Agostino's--slightly upscale husband/wife chef owned Italian in an old well kept house at Harlem and Diversy, which doesn't seem to get much mention here --La Scarola...'nuff said --Santorini..likewise --Tempo (State and Chestnut)...you chicagoans just don't realize what a great breakfast town you live in (btw--Tempo and Santorini are under common, or at least blood-related, ownership). Squeezed to order OJ, routinely excellent home fries, eggs cooked correctly, good pancakes, fresh fruit. Ya, take it for granted...you should try to eat like that where I live in Atlanta, its downright impossible. --Blackbird...again nuff said, except that unlike most Chicago places, portion sizes are not gargantuan, so although fabulous, it ain't cheap --Palermo's in Oaklawn on 95th two blocks west of Cicero for family Italian. A good Midway hiatus if you have a rental Car. My Favorite Eating Town I love to go back to my native NYC and eat both in Queens and Manhattan--not to mention Jersey, and the freshness of ingredients on the west coast makes up for a multitude of egotistical culinary output that often substitutes for taste, but when all is said is done, Chicago is my absolute favorite eating town anywhere. In Conclusion --Great FAQ-- ! Sat Jan 04 06:45:16 -0800 2003 607434 0 steve drucker 1 607482 MikeG's first category in the FAQ ver. .9 is pizza, so my first direct supporting documentation response/addition will be on pizza. There are two schools of thought concerning pizza in Chicago. One school, best exemplified by Seth Zurer, and many other people who have spent formative years on the east coast, is that good pizza just does not exist in Chicago. Some of these simply seek a nice foldable slice not decaying steadily in a lamp-heated contraption. Others recalling the grandfathered coal fired brick ovens back east and the special crusts they produce, take exception with any lesser thing. Because Chicago does not have anything close to an ancient coal fired hearth pizza parlor, one cannot find anything approximated such pizza. Piece (1927 W. North) in Wicker Park looks to New Haven as pizza (or shall I say apizz?) inspiration, but without the actual machine of New Haven, the ovens, how can it possibly compare? We did get an interloper, Bertucci's that brought over its own wood ovens but the place never caught on here. The other school, where I firmly sit, says that regardless of how pizza looks, gets sliced, or bakes, it can taste pretty darn good in Chicago. While hot dogs may be the trademark Chicago food, pizza must be the true common denominator. There are thousands upon thousands of pizza places through out Chicago. Most of them exist in obscurity, known only to those within their delivery range. Occasionally, one of the neighborhood places rises to some level of notoriety. Chowhounds led by ReneG have been singing the praises of Vito and Nicks on the southwest side (8435 S. Pulaski). More recently RST discovered that a good pizza could be found in a neighborhood hardly known for its Travolta wannabes (Old Chicago Pizza soon to be located at 742 E. 79th). I'm very happy with the pizza at Jimmy's Place in Forest Park (7411 Madison), but I would not necessarily travel great distances for it. I like Salerno's almost New York style, thicker crust, heavy hand with the cheese (1201 W. Grand). When we had ties to Northbrook, we always enjoyed the pizza at Tonneli's (1038 Waukegan), especially with our family combo: italian beef, sausage and green peppers. Still, these are just a handful of places that I know serve good pizza around town. Chicago, however, being Chicago, must have Chicago pizza. Famous pizza. For most of the country, Chicago pizza gets created in a battered black pan filled with a cornmeal accented crusted, loaded with cheese and topped with not a sauce, but seasoned tomatoes. True pan pizza gets a humongo sausage patty that fits the entire pie, not drops of rabbit poop seen in other cities. The acknowledged inventor of this style of pizza was Pizzeria Uno (29 E. Chicago). One competitor. Lou Malnati's, claims connection to the secret pan recipe (30 locations around Chicago see http://www.deepdishpizza.com/locations.html) I believe that Gino's East also has some connection to Uno's, but I forgot. For many years, Gino's East was where I took visitors, but I have never tried them since they moved to their River North locale (633 N. Wells). Pan pizza begat stuffed pizza, a structure similar in profile but with a slightly different make-up. A thinner botton crust allowing for a second top crust. The two most famous providers of stuffed pizza are Edwardo's (multiple locations http://featuredfoods.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/a-store/edwardocontact.shtml?L+scstore+kjzx1580edwardoff2f782f+1041568358) and Giodano's (also with multiple locations http://www.giordanos.com/). They both give a three layer product of crust, cheese surrounded fillings and tomato sauced upper crust. Many stuffed pizza aficionados feel that the ideal filling for stuffed pizza is spinach, and depending on your tastes, spinach stuffed pizza may approximate a superior spanokopita or a Stouffer's frozen dinner. Several years ago, the Sterns sang the praises of Carmen's in Evanston (1012 Church) as the final and glorious realization of Chicago pizza. As good as their descripive powers were, ("[L]ike the vent of a volcano, Carmen's stuffed pizza bubbles furiously when it arrives at the table..."), I have never tried Carmen's. Chicago's specialty pizza's, pan, stuffed, souffléd, are mostly sit down eating. Likewise they are as far from foldable as possible, meant to be eaten with knife and fork. The classic Chicago pizza setting is an ultra dark room scarred with so much graffiti that even the most diligent taggers cannot recognize their handiwork. These pies take time to cook. So, another part of the Chicago pizza experience is the long wait between order and pie. On top of the inevitable line beforehand, do not come for Chicago pizza really hungry. While stuffed, pan and soufflé may be the pizza that gets the publicity as Chicago style, many long time Chicagoans will claim that real or true Chicago pizza is hardly thick at all. In fact it is thin. And no pizza comes thinner than Father and Son (the flagship is at 2745 N. Milwaukee; there is slightly more upscale model at 645 W. North Ave). If a medium pan pizza can feed four, an extra large Father and Son pizza can feed, sometimes, one hungry hound. The toppings all taste a bit cheap but there is something splendid about the their pizza. Long before auters like Grant Achatz were distilling flavors to their pure essence, Father and Son was offering pizza air. To sum up, for pizza in Chicago, you will be tremendously happy with your wealth of choices, your ability to partake on something unique, something delicous. Or, you will be tremendously frustrated and on the verge of an argument locals never really want to hear. VI Interesting side note, Gino's East and Edwardo's are now owned by the same company. Thu Jan 02 20:38:09 -0800 2003 607395 0 Vital Information 2 607489 Good job, VI. Especially the part about pan pizza being a sit down and wait for it experience. East Coast pizza is the total opposite, and I would generally warn east coasters wanting a chicago pizza experience to either plan for the whole magilla or not bother. Most of the places offering "pizza by the slice" are truly awful, off the bat I can't think of one worth recommending to an out of towner, although I am occasionally suckered into one, having grown up with pizza as an "on the fly" meal option. Thanks. Thu Jan 02 21:56:02 -0800 2003 607482 0 annieb 3 607738 I would add for non-Chicagoans that the Chicago thin, which is as "Chicago" as deep dish (but as noted less well-known) is unlike other thin crusts in its crispness, the fact that the cheese goes on last (i.e., on top) unlike other thin pies where the toppings go on last, or dish, where the sauce is on top, and the fact that the pie is always cut into small squares rather than slices. (The small squares are a great Chicago innovation, alowing people to have as much or as little of their favorite part of the pie; the cheese-on-top grows on you too, esp. when you eat peppers on your pie which otherwise suffer from the scorching oven.) IME, Chicago thin is a pleasant revelation to out-of-town guests. I should also note that the general level of quality among Italian sausage on pizza in Chicago is head and shoulders above that of the sausage found in other parts of the country. And Chicago's thin crust sauce is often very well cooked and slightly sweet, almost like a Sunday gravy, and quite unlike the crushed plum tomatoes one finds on good East Coast pies and on the better Chicago dish pies. Last, harkening to an earlier recent thread, I contest the commonly accepted notion that there is no slice scene in Chicago. In the Loop, during lunch hour, there is a healthy giant slice milieu led by the Falco's, ther Granata's, the Baci's etc. The giant lunch slice is the exception that proves the rule re chicago thin always being cut in squares. What ever happened to the quixotic poster who was collecting Loop pizza information for a slice review? Mon Jan 06 12:47:47 -0800 2003 607489 0 JeffB 4 607790 I'll take this occasion to mention that the "slice" project of mine is still underway. I've got 30 or so places on my list, and alot of repeat visits (and writing) to do yet... I'm anxious to share. Regards to the board, Erik M. Tue Jan 07 13:56:50 -0800 2003 607738 0 Erik M. 5 607791 I'm eager to hear, since I 've had about 5 slices in the last month, none really satisfying, which probably led to my comments above. But when you need lunch, you need lunch. A slice continues to tempt. I HATE the giant slices. The SUVs of pizza. Tue Jan 07 14:12:38 -0800 2003 607790 0 annieb 6 607824 Hmmm. You know that you hate the slice, yet you are drawn in by its siren song time and again. Is it the aroma? Reminds me of the many wings and livers I consumed only to be left with a feeling of (metaphoric) emptiness and a vague sense of regret when I lived a few doors down from Harold's in HP. Wed Jan 08 10:55:58 -0800 2003 607791 0 JeffB 7 607832 It's never the aroma, it's a rare pizza place that emits an aroma. I think it's just that it's quick and no matter how bad, it's better than fast food or a hot dog. It usually happens when I've been somehow detained, am over busy, and don't have time to make even the simplest detour for felafel, a taco, whatever. Hope springs eternal. Wed Jan 08 11:45:38 -0800 2003 607824 0 annieb 8 607845 Look, don't get TOO hopeful. 85% of the stuff that I've consumed has been absolutely dreadful. [Sadder still, alot of it has been touted on this board.] Not a day goes by that I don't wonder exactly why I'm carrying on. Like in The Unnamable. "You must go on, I can't go on, I'll go on." I said I was going to do it, and I'll do it. ;) Regards, Erik M. Wed Jan 08 13:32:42 -0800 2003 607832 0 Erik M. 1 607586 This is MikeG's second category in the FAQ ver. .9. Like pizza, Italian beef is both related to products found in other cities and uniquely Chicago. When I went away to college in the East, I was amazed to find that no one in my dormitory knew what an Italian Beef was. A lot of people around the country, however, eat something similar. In LA it is the famous french dip, Buffaloians (sp?) put it on a special bun called a kummelweck, Philly mixes it up with wiz and onions. The distinguishing feature of Chicago's beef sandwich is the lack of substantial condiment to the beef. LA dips get slathered with a spicy mustard. 'Weck's get nose clearing horseradish and the ample salt crusted of the bun. Philly beef is thoroughly hidden in extras. Roast beef satisfies but it needs something. Chicago beef adds its succor from a jus or gravy that houses the meat for a substantial period before service. This gravy gets highly influenced by those dreaded dried spices, especially garlic powder and oregano. Beef users adjust the amount of gravy per sandwich by asking for their sandwiches dry, wet, juicy, dipped, whatever. But no matter how much gravy is added to the Italian beef sandwich, the meat will already carry the spiced flavor through out. Although the Italian beef needs no frill, it does often get two compliments. First, many eaters add peppers to their beef. The peppers can either be sweet, some kind of cooked green bell pepper, or hot, a/k/a giardinara, a mix of chopped things in oil. (See http://www.chowhound.com/midwest/boards/chicago/messages/14951.html for additional information on Giardinara). The peppers do not so much as dress the meat but add another flavor dimension. The second way to adjust the beef sandwich is to throw an Italian sausage onto the bun too. Known around town as a combo, the sausage leavens the meat mass with pork fat, char and a contrasting texture. Nearly all Chicago beef comes from a factory, the Scala Preferred factory on Orleans in the River North area (a reminder of the almost vanished industrial background of this 'hood). Vienna of hot dog fame does an Italian beef that lacks much of the Scala zest. At least one stand, Al's (1079 W. Taylor) produces their own beef. And when I say stand, I mean stand. Most of the great Italian beef places are without seats. Neither of the two top beef contenders, Al's and Johnnies in Elmwood Park (7500 W. North Av) have seats (although Johnnies has picnic tables for warm weather dining). Mr. Beef, a fading star (666 N. Orleans) avoids the seats too (in the main area), but fails to deliver a fresh sandwich. Great Italian beef is not easy to find. You do not have a lot of top choices. Mike does a good job of linking to some threads that cover pretty much all the contenders. If you look at this post (http://www.chowhound.com/midwest/boards/chicago/messages/4605.html) you will see that Al's is hardly the consensus, but I do not think that most camps are strong in their preferences. This is not a Cubs/White Sox or Liverpool/Everton rivalry that transcends your entire worldview. Al's does gets points for being hugely more accessible to downtown Chicago and its location in the old neighborhood. That little section of Taylor street with ladies still sitting on the stoops should be where the best beef comes from. Al's claims to be the originator of Italian beef, but Scala began in 1925, before Al's hit the scene in 1938. If you cannot possible stretch your legs even a bit to get some beef, then there are a few choices within the most tourist of areas. Al's has a franchise location at 169 W. Ontario. The beef and giardinara are pretty much right, but the sausages are cooked on a gas grill, removing a key element of the charcoal flavor. Avoid the combo. No tables at this Al's, but you can sit on stools (more demerits?). Nearby is the first Chicago location of Portillo's. Perhaps purists abhor the Disneyified look of this place, but I think their beef is decent enough. Again, avoid gas grilled sausage. I am not sure if Portillo's uses Scala beef, it is fairly mild, but if nothing else, I like their giardinara with its large (for giardinara) zig-zag cut carrots. Another suburban based beef chain, Buena Beef, also recently entered the city. They have something called an Express Cafe at 162 E. Superior. At the same location Buona runs something called Joey Buona's Pizzeria Grille (great name, NOT!) which has table service but nary a beef sammich on their menu. RSMBob unsuccessfully sought opinions on this place. I've generally been happy with Buona Beef's beef, black pepper and olive dominated giardinara and Torrano roll, at least at their Oak Park location (see http://www.buona.com/restaurants/locations.asp for the address of all the Buona Beef's). It should be noted that you can purchase various versions of Italian beef over the Internet. The link below is to Al's site. VI Link: http://alscatering.com/als_bulk.htm Fri Jan 03 17:30:04 -0800 2003 607395 0 Vital Information 2 607597 Hey, VI these are just great posts. You really should write your own book on Chicago. Really learned quite a bit. i've bookmarked the entire thread the next time I'm in Chicago. When I have time, I look thru my non local boards, so certain restaurants or topics are in the back of my mind, but I can never seem to get the info together for when I'm on the road. Although you may bristle at the thought of a 1.0 tip sheet, if there is one I hope there are links to these posts about Italian beef, hot dogs, pizza, and the history of the Chicago dining scene. Hmmmm, doen't suppose you'd care to do a Polish food write-up, eh? Fri Jan 03 18:17:45 -0800 2003 607586 0 Stanley Stephan 2 607619 Roast beef satisfies but it needs something. Russian dressing and cole slaw. And then you would call it a wedge. Fri Jan 03 23:51:43 -0800 2003 607586 0 annieb 2 607625 VI, Thanks for the enlightening commentary on Chicago Italian beef. I will definitely make some visits to at least a couple of the recommend establishments on my next visit. A small nit re: Philadelphia. Cheesesteak, as you so rightly opine, bears no resemblance to Italian beef. However, although it's not considered a local food thing on the order of cheesesteak or hoagies, a sandwich essentially similar to Chicago's Italian beef can be found in Philadelphia. You have to look a little, deep in the heart of South Philly, but it's there, although certainly not as common here as in Chicago. Italian roast pork is much bigger here than the beef. It's similarly cooked, and the condiments of choice, IMHO, would be aged provolone and greens (usually broccoli rabe, cooked with garlic). Unlike the Chicago situation where, as I read your report, one provisioner makes much of the beef for many of the stands, in Philadelphia each stand would cook their own, whether it be pork or beef. For pork, I'd recommend, in no particular order, Tony Luke's or John's in South Philly, or Tommy DiNic's at the Reading Terminal Market; Tommy also makes an excellent beef. Sat Jan 04 00:28:56 -0800 2003 607586 0 Bob Libkind 1 607807 MikeG provides in the FAQ, a somewhat idiosyncratic choice for paragraph 3, hot dogs. He lists the super-rific Superdawg. I have love the place, not so much the hot dog. Here's a bit more information to help people make their hot dog choices. Following the FAQ standard, I have used the chowhound post number in place of a true hyperlink. Strangers may think pizza the archetypical Chicago food (in its pan format), but locals know the true Chicago food is the hot dog. When asked, the local will describe the Chicago hot dog as thus: a chubby, beefy, slightly spicy sausage manufactured by the Vienna company, taunt from its natural skin, boiled, served on a steamed poppy seed bun and widely garnished with mustard (smooth, yellow, mild), relish (halloween green), dill pickle spear, chopped onions, tomato, sneaky hot "sport" peppers and a shake of celery salt. The leading source for all things hot dog remains Hot Dog Chicago, a 1983 frank field expedition by two Loyola professors, Rich Bowen and Dick Fay. The fact that conventional wisdom is best represented in a twenty year old book demonstrates the current state of Chicago wieners. (Although in 2001, Rich Bowen claimed that 75% of the places reviewed still existed http://www.luc.edu/publications/loyolamag/fall2001/hotdog.htm) It is my contention that for all its connection to and glorification of, the Chicago hot dog is a fading star. The claim that Chicagoans do not seek dogs often can be epitomized by the fact that within the Loop, the central business district, where tens of thousands of workers need lunch daily, nary a decent hot dog can be found. Ten years ago, the Loop had fine standard bearers in Irving's, U Dawg U, Michael's and Little Louies. These are all gone. Foodies scoff at the appearance of hot dogs at Taste of Chicago, but this may be one chance for visitors to partake in a Chicago hot dog. Within the heart of Chicago remain a few outposts, flotsom and jetson really in the hot dog tide. Gold Coast Hot Dogs was the last red hope, a media darling. The original faded in its dirty glory, but franchises remain in such places as Union Station and 159 N. Wabash (combined with a Popeyes). Harry V reports on a passable dog at John's Popcorn (9569). There with all the other tourist places is a branch of Portillo's, a decent enough hot dog place with many locations in the suburbs (100 W. Ontario). There is also a sub-standard off-shoot of Flukey's, discussed below, on the Mag Mike (520 N. Michigan Ave.) And it is not just central, a rather spontaneous hot dog survey produced a lot of so-so results (15376, 15600). Other reports of decline can be found here (4604, the mediocre Polk and Western). No one captured better possible state of the Chicago dog than Harry V's take on the Bunny Hutch (13623). But let us not mourn the Chicago hot dog's decline. Let us lead a revitalization. Let us eat hot dogs again! After all, we have been eating them since the 1893 Colombian Exposition when two immigrants offered a sausage with the flavors of Austrian Hungarian empire. A few years later, these brothers formed the Vienna Sausage Manufacturing company, named after their inspiring city. Today, Vienna claims that over 80% of Chicago's hot dog stands serve their product (http://www.viennabeef.com/history.htm). A heavy majority, but not a monopoly, GWiv points out some of the other hot dog brands (prompted by John Fox, a New Jersey hot dog freak who brings this topic up every so often (10464)). Interestingly, I cannot find any specific information on the history of the other two definitive aspects of the Chicago dog. I do not know when or why Chicago dogs were served boiled and not griddled or charcoal grilled as you find most other dogs around the USA. In addition, I do not necessarily know who started dressing Chicago dogs in the classic manner or why they did it as such. The Chicago dog, of course, does not include ketchup or kraut (see 13681 for some ketchup discussion). The Chicago hot dog vendor also does not operate from the street (15788). One subtext of the Chicago hot dog that is seldom spoken out loud is that the Chicago hot dog is Jew food. The Vienna dog is not kosher, but it is all beef, "kosher style". For many years, Vienna's chief rival was the Kosher Zion hot dog produced by David Berg. (Today, David Berg and related brands and names belong to Vienna). No hot dog stand stands more for Jewishness of the Chicago dog than Flukey's, a Jewish owned establishment serving food to Jewish customers in the very Jewish neighborhood around Maxwell St. Flukey's followed the Jews south, Blackstone and 63rd, west (Roosevelt and Central Park) and finally north (Western and Pratt). My hunch is that Flukey's created the MRPOTPCS configuration, but again, I have not determined this/have any evidence for this. The Jewish connection can also be seen in the fact that good hot dogs remain in the Jewish suburb, Skokie (16416). Flukey's long ago left Maxwell Street, Chicago's version of the Lower East Side, but the hot dog remained a Maxwell Street staple. Until misguided urban planning and a greedy University destroyed the Maxwell St. area, hot dog stands operated on and around the intersection of Halsted and Maxwell. The Maxwell St. stands became more known, however, for an offshoot of the hot dog, the spicier, "Polish" sausage (not necessarily related to true Polish sausage, i.e., kilbasa). The polish sausage inverted a lot of the rules. The thing gets griddled, producing a greasy, unctuous sandwich ("a tiny thrill in the gall bladder" they say in Hot Dog Chicago). Sharing the griddle with the Polish sausage are piles of soft onions. A healthy portion of onions becomes the dominant accessory to the Maxwell St. Polish. The heavier, zestier Polish, SOULFUL, Polish, appealed to the later day denizens of Maxwell St., African Americans. Ironically, Maxwell street operators added to their menu's, that most un-Jewish of foods, the pork chop. Several places following in the Maxwell tradition have popped up around Chicago, pretty much entirely in areas with or near African American populations (17737, 16534). The Original Jim's of Maxwell, probably second in fame in the hot dog universe, has recently re-opened on Union Street, just south of Roosevelt/east of the Dan Ryan 94 expressway. The forced removal has done little to the product. It remains a 24 opportunity to build artery damage. For a while, there existed a strong counter-school to the Chicago dog, what I call the "tastee" school centered on the now defunct Tast-e Hast-e. The tastee dog differed firstly by the base and then secondly by the toppings. The meat in the tastee sausage comes from Leon's Sausage Co., a dog both squishier yet spicier than the Vienna hot dog. The soft base supported a full garnish. More than the usual topping: lettuce, green pepper, cucumber with the other toppings, called a garden on a bun. Because the Leon's sausage textually seems like a pork wiener, even an Oscar Meyer "kiddie" dog, I always associated this school of hot dog as the "gentile" school. Today, I appreciate an occasional Leon's dog (although I skip the lettuce). They are, however, hard to find. A very fitting lesson on Chicago politics can be found in this post on the closing of Wally's, a tastee place (7742). My report on one of the few remaining tastee place can be found here (13118). Byron's (several locations including the original at 1017 W. Irving Park) serves a Vienna dog with the tastee garniture. Even though I speak somewhat pessimistically about Chicago hot dogs, they remain, probably my single favorite food to eat. The FAQ provides the post number to my paean to my favorite place Gene and Judes (2720 River Road, River Grove). The Gene and Judes dog ignores the rules willy-nilly. It is skinny and mininally dressed (no tomato, pickle or celary salt), but the dogs are cooked absolutely to perfection. Perfect (almost always) fries add to the experience. Eat two or three. There is also a link in the FAQ to another favorite of mine, Weiner Circle (2622 N. Clark). Don't believe me, read what some other chowhounds say about the Chicago hot dog. A place that sounds worth visiting for many reasons is Jimmy's (4000 W. Grand). ReneG captures it well (5067). Rene also does an authoritative take on hot dogs (3425). Seth gives a good perspective from someone who grew up eating another style of hot dog (3382). Andy O'Neil, who has not posted in ages, gives an impassioned defense of Chicago hot dogs here (3418). Another outsider, John Fox, mentioned above, has weighted in a few times on Chicago hot dogs (3373, 3403). Finally, for an idea of what a Chicago hot dog stand should look like, see this post by Gary (12912). Many of the hot dog places around Chicago have become Mexican places. The taco and burrito in many ways are the spiritual descendant of the Chicago hot dog. Yet, this being Chicago and America, there is surely a Mexican hot dog as well (17747). VI Tue Jan 07 20:22:11 -0800 2003 607395 0 Vital Information 2 607828 Rob, these are great articles. I am glad Mike G wrote his Visitor's FAQ: a) because it's an excellent article in itself; b) because it has stimulated such excellent responses. But where's the citation for my post on Gene and Jude? :) Wed Jan 08 11:14:02 -0800 2003 607807 0 Harry V. 3 607861 Point me to it (here, or mike at michaelgebert.com) and I will add it to the next version. To be honest, there were several topics that were hard to adequately document because they were mainly talked about a long time ago and it's just hard to do the browser Find search when you have the entire board loaded... so if anyone knows of something especially helpful or good to read that I didn't cite, please, tell me and I will next time. Needless to say, I'll also point to VI's treatises. Wed Jan 08 16:41:15 -0800 2003 607828 0 Mike G 4 607869 I was really just joking with VI; I'd rather let my unfavorable reviews lie sleeping. Gene and Jude is certainly worth one visit, and the dogs themselves are good (assuming you order them without fries, and, more importantly, can maintain your appetite in that atmosphere). By the way, I certainly agree with your choice of Superdawg. I'm willing to trade a natural casing for that uniquely meaty thickness and assertive seasoning. Wed Jan 08 18:26:13 -0800 2003 607861 0 Harry V. 5 607872 NOW I remember your review! In fact I think it's where the term "prison-like" or something for the atmosphere that I cited from memory comes from, isn't it? Something criminal justice system-related, anyway. You just can't beat Superdawg for the whole package. I seriously think it should be placed on the National Register of Historic Places; having just come back from my hometown of Wichita, where the faux-diner thing has gotten so out of hand that even real 50s drive-ins are now clad in a sort of gleaming 30s aluminum art deco (in the same sort of jumbling of periods that made Scott Joplin music for the 1930s in The Sting), it's great that Superdawg has the same paint scheme that it started with, the same diamond-motif signage, the same corny copy on the packaging, everything. Oh, and the food's good too. Wed Jan 08 20:12:34 -0800 2003 607869 0 Mike G 2 609985 I live in Annapolis Maryland and trying to find where I can get Zion Brand Hot Dogs. Thanks Sat Nov 22 14:10:13 -0800 2003 607807 0 Jacob Spencer 2 609986 I live in Annapolis Maryland and trying to find where I can get Zion Brand Hot Dogs. Thanks Sat Nov 22 14:11:20 -0800 2003 607807 0 Jacob Spencer 2 610055 The city of Chicago may not be the hot bed of hot dogs anymore but there are many fine places in the suburbs. I grew up with Little Louie's in Northbrook.. and for me the best is when the hot dog has hand cut or fresh french fries served with it. Poochie's in Skokie and Dear Franks in Deerfield are two places where the Chicago tradition continues. Presently, I live in Urbana, Illinois and for some reason the Chicago dog never made it to the U of I. Whenever I make it to the northern burbs it is Poochies or Dear Franks and actually there is an excellent establishment in Lake Zurich with good dogs and fresh cut fries. Ultimately, the key is a hot dog with a natural casing and no hint that ketchup belongs in that poppy seed bun. Fri Dec 03 12:42:00 -0800 2004 607807 0 Michael Langendorf