111315 Wed Sep 04 18:19:27 -0700 2002 21 7 Chicago Area 0 602307 A day late I went and tried RST's discovery with my adventuresome Mexican-chowfriend (I mean, he likes authentic Mex, not that he is), on its desolate strip of Kimball across from the El terminus and next to a Burger King, and realized that I had even seen it once after dropping someone off at the El and had a passing thought about "who can tell if a joint like that is good or terrible?" It's pretty good and nicer and more professional feeling on the inside than out. I wasn't ecstatic about it but I found the homemadeness entirely likable. This is the kind of food that has to be eaten hot, and everything I had was an argument for freshly made hot corn tortillas. (I have to admit if it comes from a package, I'd much rather have a flour one than the usual corn rubber. Call me a gringo.) The most interesting and delectable item was, indeed, the quesadilla flor de calabaza (did I get that right?); I believe the squash was sauteed, and I'll have to try one where it isn't because it seemed to need that. But the combination of different squashes gave a range of flavors (from peppery to spinachy) that I wouldn't have credited squash with normally. (There may actually have been some of those things in it.) I also had a taco al pastor, which was not too fatty (for $1.65, quite lean) and amusingly tasted very much like a dim sum pork bun (same pepper sauce?), and huarache, which was hearty but didn't come together for me (bean flavor was sort of lost between corn and salsa). The only thing I found outright disappointing was the pina agua fresca, which seemed to be canned pineapple juice watered down. Is there some place that's known for really good agua fresca? It's the sort of thing I'd order more if I believed I'd get something really good a greater proportion of the time. And you brains fans-- they were pushing a brain taco special today. So anyway, thanks RST, and thanks Chowhound for existing to tell me about such places! Now can I learn the name of your secret Iraqi place? Wed Sep 04 18:19:27 -0700 2002 0 Mike G 1 602308 Whoops, I guess I should have looked at how this thread has grown since I printed out RST's post a week+ ago-- I see that I'm seemingly the only person here who hadn't been to Los Mogotes by now! Didn't mean to make a big deal of my visit by starting its own thread... Slightly embarassed, but too full to be entirely so, Mike Wed Sep 04 18:29:04 -0700 2002 602307 0 Mike G 1 602311 On Monday we stopped by the location at Argyle and Kedzie (frequently referred to on this board as being at "Lawrence and Kedzie"). Not being particularly hungry, we confined ourselves to one bean huarache (as praised by RST) and one quesadilla with chiles in it. The stuff was OK. Freshly made tortillas are indeed nice, but not enough to make the otherwise pedestrian ingredients seem any better than they are. And they could have put a bit more salt into the tortilla dough for my taste. The beans on the huarache were watery and unremarkable, the cheese prosaic, etc. It reminded me of the huaraches at Dona Lolis, quite a bit less greasy than those formidable constructions but also much less flavorful. Dona Lolis's beans are much better - thicker textured and better tasting. The quesadilla at Los Mogotes was better than the huarache, due to the extra flavor from the peppers. But Dona Lolis again provides still more flavorful quesadillas. All three sauces at Los Mogotes - the one served with the extremely stale chips when we sat down, and the red and the green ones in squeeze bottles served with our order - were almost too oily for me to eat. Maybe that's authentic. The place was marginally cleaner than I expected. I asked for a side order of rice, which was never served, but for which we were charged. Would I go back? Put it this way. Eating even two items at Dona Lolis almost instantly makes my stomach feel like a Mack truck rammed its way down my throat and parked there for the night, engine running. But even so, I would return to Dona Lolis sooner than Taqueria los Mogotes. The latter was not horrible but offered no compelling reason to return. Wed Sep 04 19:15:27 -0700 2002 602307 0 Harry V. 2 602321 Thanks for the review on the Argyle/Kedzie location. I think that all the reviews so far have been about the branch on Kimball and Lawrence (on Kimball, 1/4 block south of Lawrence), which may or may not be related. They are linked together as #1 and #2 but the to-go menu of the Kimball/Lawrence location does not list the address/phone of the one on Argyle (see previous posts on this). Thu Sep 05 02:01:58 -0700 2002 602311 0 RST 1 602320 Hi Mike, I'm on the fly for the next several days but I'll get the report on the Iraqi place out soon (I've eaten there every single day this week). AND ZIM, if you are reading this, I saw your note way down below on the Iraqi stone soup. No, I don't know this soup: the base (tomato/lamb/classic spices) sounds common enough but I have never heard of a "stone" being placed into it as part of some folk tradition. Tell me more. I have also consulted several books (Daisy Iny on cooking in Baghdad: I have the Evanston lib copy, Claudia Roden on the cooking of Baghdadi Jews + her wonderful account of Baghdadi Jews in India, various Lebanese/Syrian tomes etc) but have not found a single reference. But surely, you don't mean a kofta, surely you mean a kibbeh (called kubba in Iraq) serving as the "stone"? The dolma here is superb: they make it only on Sunday morning (ready by midday). As they have an open kitchen you can watch the whole process (I intend to do so this Sunday): they layer a huge pot with a couple of hundred of hand-stuffed vines leaves/halved tomatoes/hollowed eggplant/hollowed onion, all arranged in a beautiful sunburst or sunflower pattern, with...tara!...with chicken wings (!) on the bottom (yumyum)! Very subtle spicing, bright flavors and no nuts and raisins-unlike the Greek/Balkan version. $7 an order. Mike, I'm glad that you made it to Los Mogotes. I'm surprised that you found the agua de pina disappointing: they usually make a very good one. Note that flor de calabaza is always sauteed first before being used as filling: the quibble (and it really is a very minor one) I made on the other thread about Dona Lolis is that the pre-sauteed flowers sit waiting in its canister for an order sometimes for hours. I mentioned this not to pick on Dona Lolis (it's such a tiny tiny difference) but to point up/emphasize the beauty of the flowers that the girl from Iguala was using. And what...you didn't try the brain tacos? ;) You disappoint me, man! ;) ;) We'll have to go eat Iraqi pacha together one Saturday night: a whole lambskull (eyeball and all) with a delicate little hand-sewn (yes, with thread) tripe pocket filled with rice and spices!!! I don't know if I like your word "discovery" ("RST's discovery") bec it suggests some kind of a "trophy" I hang on the wall. For me, food (and wine!) is always about people: the people who tell me the stories about the food I am eating. I virtually never storm into a place pronounce it good or bad and then run. I chitchat, I flirt, I gossip, I ask pesky questions, I make a fool of myself...And then I come back the next day and do it all over again until I feel that I have understood a little bit about the people and the food that they make, and about the "conditions of possibility" of the place: the strengths as well as the weaknesses, the limitations as well as the little triumphs. As I pointed out on the other thread (on how to recognize good Mexican), it is never about some abstract/dogmatic set of criteria, certainly never about granting "stars" or rank or points on some 100-point scale (which is the questionable practice of a certain very powerful wine critic). This kind of validation does not interest me. Thinking in terms of "thumbs up" or "it sucks" (unless it's Tarascas of course ;)) means nothing to me; I prefer to ferret out the "specialness" of a place: in our gray and homogenized world, how is this food I am eating a little different? I had mentioned that there was a taqueria run by folks from Eastern Michoacan on Kimball and Lawrence; Zim asked for details and I tried my best to set the place in as rich, as nuanced, as subtle (and hopefully, as illuminating) a context as I can. If you look back at my post, you will not find the slightest whiff of trophy-ism in it: happiness that such a place exists perhaps...pride perhaps... It was certainly not about touting good chips or bad chips. I was hoping to show that it is not always necessary to reduce Other People to a function: the function of pleasing ME. I was hoping that perhaps butterflies would make a difference... [shrug] Richard Thu Sep 05 01:51:16 -0700 2002 602307 0 RST 2 602322 RST, Not to quibble with details of preparation, but you write "flor de calabaza is always sauteed first before being used as filling." I would take your word for this before that of many others, but, say, at Le Colonial on Maxwell (Canal) Street, do you think they saute the flower before tucking it into the empanada? I didn't think they did, but I could be wrong. What impressed me about the squash blossom empanada at this friendly little stand with the two tortilla ladies (annieb, a clue?!) was that it hardly seemed cooked at all -- almost steamed in the cornmeal crust, untouched by direct contact with heated oil. Which I liked. A lot. Thu Sep 05 02:02:52 -0700 2002 602320 0 David Hammond 3 602323 Up late, huh? It's 1:20 a.m. You may be right about the flor de calabaza in those empanadas being completely fresh: simply chopped up, tossed with classic herbs but perhaps also tossed with some sauteed onions? before filling. But then empanadas are deep-fried while a quesadilla is turned over a couple of times on the griddle. Flowers (for quesos) not pre-sauteed may not quite cook through otherwise. Joan might also have an answer to this. Joan, are you reading this? Those are amazing empanadas aren't they? I have discovered though that there is one woman who is really the stellar fryer over there: her technique (not just frying, but more crucially organizing her work so that nothing sits too long) is just absolutely perfect (it's not that easy: she's got 6? 7? different empanadas to organize and remember). There is another one who is a little bit more lax and she sometimes allows an empanada that has been "draining" on the side for a while to go out to a customer. The "good" one would quickly flash-fry it again for a few second for ultimum crunchiness. But all this is really truly nitpicking... Have you tried the brain empanada? Truly the best way to introduce someone to eating brain. You would never guess that it is brain: no squishiness at all but firm, meaty...With that thin drizzle of subtly-sour, tangy crema, it's really a marvellous experience! Now for this one, I would really kill to know the technique: my guess is the brain is par-boiled (several seconds, no more), chopped-up in fairly big chunks, tossed with aromatic herbs and then stuffed. Any other conjectures? Richard Thu Sep 05 02:46:22 -0700 2002 602322 0 RST 4 602327 Well, I haven't seen it in the city but in a couple of travelogue/foodtv/documentaries I've seen on oaxaca I remeber seeing whole, fresh flowers put in the quesadilla uncooked. I remember thinking that this might not cook through/taste slightly chalky but they were definitely not sauteed first. On the brains front, i don't know if you got that far down in your reading, but you should definitely try the mughuz masala at shan. I love the stuff, took me back to memories of my grandfather and its a great breakfast. attached is a link to gwiv's experience with the brains there. Regarding stone soup the folk tale is not specifically iraqi, I've seen mention of eastern european versions of the tale (i'll try to hunt up a link or something) and I think I meant kefte (at least that waht i thought it sounded like in arabic) but I may have translated it into hindi thinking wow, that's so cool that it's almost exactly the same word. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/110797#598680 Thu Sep 05 09:36:37 -0700 2002 602323 0 zim 5 602331 Also another way of interpreting it is think that Dona Lolis' intention might be to bring out the "deep vegetable" (instead of the "fresh herb/flower") aspect of squash blossoms. These are two different aesthetics: long cooking brings out dimensions of the squash blossom that would not be in the fresh. Again, the only reason this all came out was bec of that girl from Iguala: otherwise, it would not even have been an issue. Again, I have never cooked/handled squash blossoms personally so do not really understand exactly what happens when it wilts (there's a slimy phase too, isn't there?) Again maybe Joan would know. Or who was it that started that thread on squash blossoms (can't find it now): Gwiv? Richard Thu Sep 05 10:49:12 -0700 2002 602327 0 RST 6 602332 RST, I've gone through a few "bouquets" of squash blossoms this season. My “technique” (if one can call it that) is to simply and briefly sauté them in butter. The leaves and "petals" wilt like spinach, and, yes, they do go through a slimy phase, which I had partially attributed to the oil, but which I suppose is also the gooey essence of the stalk being released. What I liked about the empanadas at La Colonial was that although the blossoms retained some natural gooey-ness, there was very little oil on the flowers to interfere with their very subtle taste (and lemme tell you, this taste gets more subtle as the years go by). Thu Sep 05 11:09:15 -0700 2002 602331 0 David Hammond 7 602333 Actually, something in MikeG's description struck me (I had never thought of it): he said "peppery to spinachy". Does long-cooking squash blossoms bring out a peppery dimension? (This is quite possible: plants, fruits, grapes-in-wine keep changing flavor nuances as their "states" change.) Or is it "deep flavors" due to other herbs + "integration" of "real" pepper. It sounds very intriguing. Anyone? Incidentally, I was talking the other day with a woman from Toluca about the flor de calabaza in the city. And she claims that no one does it right(!!!) She started ranting about how stem ends should never be used etc. I was in a great hurry and could not probe more. Richard Thu Sep 05 11:22:35 -0700 2002 602332 0 RST 8 602373 I wouldn't rule out that there was actually green pepper in it-- there were things that fell out of mine that could have been, but I didn't pull it apart and examine closely (and anything that fell out got scooped up again pretty quickly). Thu Sep 05 17:31:42 -0700 2002 602333 0 Mike G 9 602458 Looked up several books on vegetables today, including Elizabeth Schneider's heavy just-published reference book. No one seems to have an answer to our questions above. Schneider discusses the difference bet male and female flowers (you harvest the males but leave the females to fruit, but females seem to stuff better etc) but says nothing about flavor profile or texture through the diff stages of cooking. I guess it's time to do some sleuthing. I might also ask Sra. Guadalupe of Restaurante Oaxaca at Ashland and 47th. She DOES offer quesadillas de flor de calabaza (it's on the menu) although I have never tried it: I wonder if it might turn out to be an intriguing Oaxacan variant! She'll be able to tell me if Oaxacans really use the entire unchopped, unsauteed flowers as filling... Richard Sun Sep 08 02:32:12 -0700 2002 602373 0 RST 10 602459 RST, You write, "She'll be able to tell me if Oaxacans really use the entire unchopped, unsauteed flowers as filling." At La Colonial, I'm pretty sure that there were very tiny, diced chunks of zucchini in the flor de calabaza empanada. Actually I didn’t notice if there were stems, but I’ve bought little bitty zucchini from Nichol’s that still had the flower attached; the stem itself was very short; seems like that whole thing could be chopped, inserted in an empanada envelope, and fried. I think that’s how they do it on Canal Street – at least the last time I was there. It would seem highly likely that different chefs on different days with different grades of ingredients would improvise. If I had a tender young blossom, attached or unattached to the zucchini, I’d use the whole damn thing. Sun Sep 08 03:24:37 -0700 2002 602458 0 David Hammond 11 602473 here's a little more squasg flower esoterica- harvested from an earlier query on the general board - I think annieb may have been the one to provide this specific bit of info: If the blossoms are more than hours old, pinch out the central stamen because it becomes slimy. Also- males are pointy, females are rounded. when I first started harvesting the blossoms this summer i was lazy and left a little bit of the stem on - slight bitterness (pepperiness?) As we got more blossoms and learned a little, I began to discard those. our usual prep for at home quesadillas was quick sautee with a few minced bits o shallot then topped with oaxacan cheese. quite a family pleaser I did try the whole blossom approach, and enjoyed the taste/texture more of the sauteed variety. Sun Sep 08 12:41:26 -0700 2002 602459 0 zim 12 602511 I started a new subthread (see above) to continue this discussion as this one is veering too far to the right. Mon Sep 09 21:17:03 -0700 2002 602473 0 RST 2 602359 Interesting about the dolmas. May at Sultan's Market gave me a taste of one of her family's favorites, dolmas cooked similarly but with lamb ribs. Rich and very tasty. Simply filled and seasoned, but oh so good. Thu Sep 05 15:07:03 -0700 2002 602320 0 annieb 2 602501 Hi, I'm starting a mini-subthread to continue the discussion below on flor de calabaza bec that one seems to have veered too far to the right of the screen. This continues from where Zim left off down below. I am at the HWPL lib right now (and using their computer). I just looked through all the Mexican cookbooks on the shelf. Diane Kennedy has recipes (or at least instructions) for quesadillas de flor de calabaza in virtually all her books. In The Art of Mexican Cooking, there is a comprehensive discussion on preparation of squash blossoms on p150 (also see p44). I cannot go into it at length now bec my computer time is restricted, but she discusses male vs female flowers, leaving 1 inch of the stem attached to the calyx, leaving the stamen intact (!!!) and rough-chopping. The classic company for this filling includes onion/garlic/epazote and charred and peeled chile poblano. She says to cook until the calyx is tender and consistently uses "10 minutes" as a gauge. Patricia Quintana also rough-chops, does not specify time (just "cook till no moisture is left") and recommends removing the stamens (!!!). In Kennedy's My Mexico, she records a flor de calabaza guisado con jitomate (squash blossoms cooked with tomatoes) on p34, advises removal of "stalks and stringy green sepals" and rough-chopping, and again uses 10 minutes as a guide. She notes that "bec this filling is rather moist, (Sra. Elvira of Zitacuaro) prefers to use it for quesadillas of corn masa that are then fried crisp." (!!!David!!!this may answer your empanada question) I don't have Bayless' first book with me and RB's Mexican Kitchen doesn't have a recipe for q de f de c although he does note (p195) that making quesadillas filled with huitlacoche or squash blossoms, "that's very very Mexico City". Most intriguingly, Susana Trilling's book on Oaxacan cuisine has a recipe that calls for enveloping the whole flowers (along with the herbs-epazote etc) within the tortilla! Boy, it's time to go down to Restaurante Oaxaca and see how Sra. Guadalupe does it!!! Seems like we might have a Oaxacan version of q/f/c right in our hands! Richard Mon Sep 09 16:56:00 -0700 2002 602320 0 RST 3 602507 Hi Richard. I recently dined at D. Lolis and had my first f de c quesadilla there. It was delicious, but I must say that la dona could have used pork rather than flowers [reference to an earlier thread re veal], as the thing was so full of epazote that any subtle taste of squash blossom was lost. Until I am converted, I will maintain that squash blossoms must be quickly and simply fried to maintain their flavor and delicacy. What shall I try next? Mon Sep 09 18:21:03 -0700 2002 602501 0 JeffB 4 602509 Hi, I'm back home now on my own computer. A few corrections/additional notes now that I don't have a line of people waiting to use the machine and all growling behind me. Re: Susana Trilling reference above. I meant "whole UNCOOKED flowers" of course: this was the whole issue that started this subthread. This is from the book that accompanies a TV series, which may be the show Zim refers to. Her presentation seems to be too elaborate and calls for a salsa of chile de arbol and guacamole to be served on the side. She does not distinguish between male and female flowers but refers curiously to "pistils" (which would be on female flowers). Is this simply bad editing? (editor didn't catch the fact that she meant to say stamen, i.e. of male flowers) or does she really mean to say that she prefers to use female flowers? Kennedy's recipe for q/f/c in her first book The Cuisines of Mexico does not include epazote although this may be to avoid scaring off readers of that period who might not have been familiar with this herb. In this recipe, she says that the sauteed f/c should end up being "moist not juicy" and calls for a 15 minute cooking time. Elsewhere, she says to cook till the juice evaporates but notes that sometimes, when the flowers are not fresh-picked, they tend to be dry and some 3 tbsp of water might have to be added. Yet elsewhere, she says to cook till the "bulbous base is tender but not soft" (about 10 minutes). In Essential Cuisines, Kennedy instructs one to (p497) "cut off green stems and strip off the stringy sepals, leaving the fleshy base and stamen intact" and then adds: SADLY, MANY MEXICAN COOKS REMOVE THESE PARTS (i.e. the "penis-shaped"-her words-stamens and calyx base) WHICH IN ACTUAL FACT ADD A DELICIOUS FLAVOR AND TEXTURE (!!!) She also has several recipes for quesadillas de huitlacoche and for quesadillas de sesos which I didn't have time to study. Re: Patricia Quintana above. After reporting above that she advises removal of stamens, I could not find the reference/page # again (in Feasts of Life) so disregard that bit for now. In Taste of Mexico, she includes a recipe for a hoity-toity "D.F." crepas de f/c (i.e. French crepes) with a filling that includes kernels from 3 ears of corns, 3 tomatoes + chile poblano. She calls for this mixture to be cooked for 40 minutes (!!!) "until it thickens" (!!!). Richard Mon Sep 09 21:05:45 -0700 2002 602507 0 RST 5 602518 Richard, To further confuse the issue I was at the Chicago Botanic Gardens a few weeks ago for a Rick Bayless cooking demo and he added freshly picked chopped squash blossoms to Tacos de Calabacitas. He incorporated the roughly chopped squash blossoms at the end of the preparation and mentioned that the residual heat would be sufficient for the squash blossoms. Bayless also added edible flowers as decoration making for a really attractive dish. Bayless, during the demo, expanded on the ingredients he was using and, in reference to squash blossoms, said that the pistil was from the male flower and should be removed and that one should also remove the small buds from around the base of the squash blossom. Bayless went on to say the way you tell the male squash blossoms are the small little rings around the bottom of the flower and/or the pistil inside of the blossom and that the males may be harvested without affecting production. He also made a somewhat subtle reference to the pistil resembling the male sexual organ, therefore making it easy to differentiate between male and female squash blossoms. Disclaimer: I am not a horticulturist, nor do I play one on TV. I am simply parroting info from the Bayless demo at the Chicago Botanic Gardens, though I do have the recipe in front of me and I took notes, not relying on memory, which seems to be getting worse as I age. For anyone who has not been, the Chicago Botanic Gardens are wonderful, beautiful gardens, interesting specialty gardens informed staff. The CBG also has, to keep this on topic, cooking demos by local chefs, this weekend is Michael Altenberg of Campagnola on Saturday and Michael Foley of Printer’s Row on Sunday. I will provide a link of times, directions etc. Richard, I, as I am sure many others are, looking forward to meeting you at the Chowhound Maxwell Street Market Walk next Sunday. Enjoy, Gary (who ate at both George’s Kabob and Los Mogotes on Kimball in the last week.) Link: http://www.chicago-botanic.org/whatsnew/f%26v.html Tue Sep 10 09:20:56 -0700 2002 602509 0 G Wiv 5 602520 At risk of losing some flavor, I reiterate that any parts containing pollen should be removed if there is anyone with known allergies, and perhaps even if there isn't, as such a strong dose of pollen can trigger a first time reaction. There are those that advise that those with allergies should not consume flowers, period, but that's asking a little too much of me :-) I am not tempted to fugu, but flor de calabaza, si. On the long-cooked corn, I think there is a lack of appreciation by many nowadays for long-cooked vegetables, which take on a taste and texture completely different. Edna Lewis speaks more eloquently to this than I can. Tue Sep 10 09:33:31 -0700 2002 602509 0 annieb