111282 Wed Aug 28 11:51:30 -0700 2002 13 7 Chicago Area 0 602013 Nice article a coupla days ago. see attached link Link: http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown26.html Wed Aug 28 11:51:30 -0700 2002 0 zim 1 602014 Mark Brown's role models (a "tougher guy" and Dirty Harry)say pretty much everything I need to know about this guy's personal problems, expressed in his hysterical reaction to what he considers the improper dressing of wieners. Wed Aug 28 12:01:24 -0700 2002 602013 0 David Hammond 2 602015 It *is* curious how nobody can precisely say why they object to ketchup on the hot dog. My own timid suggestions that the flavor of ketchup conflicts with pickle relish as well as with mustard did not win much approval, as I recall. But I'm still waiting for another explanation. Hilarious thread subtitle, by the way. When people know the substance of what you're going to say and you can still surprise and delight them all the same - that is wit indeed. Wed Aug 28 12:34:55 -0700 2002 602014 0 Harry V. 3 602029 it's a fashion/designer thing...you don't put red on red....don't bring up green ketchup...the theory still holds...ketchup on corned beef? ugh! Wed Aug 28 15:44:42 -0700 2002 602015 0 dick 2 602016 This hot dog and ketchup thing is perhaps the one truly insoluble conflict of our age, besides which all others dwindle into insignificance. Seems to me that there's a sensible middle ground here. I have been known to put ketchup on a normal, American-style hot dog. Why? Because there's not that much flavor to the dog itself. On the other hand, give me a good spicy dog, let alone a Polish or Thuringer, and I'm a strict mustard man, maybe onions. Clearly the historical roots of the anti-ketchup feeling go back to stronger dogs than you find in most commercial establishments today. So historically, the anti-ketchup side is right, mustard suffices. In terms of modern dogs, ketchup is as necessary and welcome as any other modern culinary invention, like a foofy design of raspberry sauce on a flourless chocolate cake or crushed potato chips on top of a green bean and Campbell's mushroom soup casserole. Let there be peace. Go forth and sin no more. Wed Aug 28 12:38:01 -0700 2002 602014 0 Mike G 3 602018 A compelling insight! Wed Aug 28 12:43:38 -0700 2002 602016 0 Harry V. 2 602019 He did a little further down give credit to his mother as the real role model on the ketchup issue, I do not claim to know if this would or would not qualify as another sort of "neurosis". You'll be glad to know you're not alone on the issue. See attached link for a follow-up column on the subject (BTW, I forgot do you like ketchup on your dogs or are you just defending the right to put ketchup on said sausage?) Link: http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown28.html Wed Aug 28 13:46:33 -0700 2002 602014 0 zim 3 602024 Though not licensed to practice psychotherapy in Illinois (nor any other state, come to think of it), the root causes of catsup-o-phobia could not be more obvious. Mr. Brown’s obvious emulation of a strong male figure (Clint Eastwood/Father) and tender attributions to mother (“My mother assures me,” he assures us) indicate that his condition, like perhaps that of many others who HATE catsup, is the result of a childhood fixation, a lingering fear, an unresolved psychological cul-de-sac that realizes itself as a seemingly inexplicable loathing for a simple condiment. There's a reason why people say "catsup is for kids" -- it's because kids haven't developed all the grown-up problems related to this innocent sauce. What is pathogenesis of this deep fear of catsup? Gosh, could the psychosymbolism be more obvious? Catsup = blood Hot dog = guess what Hatred of catsup is nothing more or less than a form (and not a very subtle form) of castration anxiety! The reaction of catsup-o-phobes to this latent, irrational childhood fear is, frequently and predictably, the reaction of a child: hostility. Listen to one of the catsup-hating neurotics that Mr. Brown quotes, “I happen to think that people who put ketchup on their hot dogs should be imprisoned until they learn some respect.” Obviously, this person wants to lock-up the free-spirited catsup lover in a sick projection of his own prison of caged infantile ideation. Or here’s another “The people who do this are heathens, cretins, buffoons, subhumans.” How can you even begin to answer such totalitarianism of taste, such jackbooted intolerance? Note, too, the angry infant’s lust for power and tendency toward childish name-calling? My counsel is simple (if unsolicited): Don’t hate catsup. Confront your fears. Embrace the joy of our simple, straightforward All-American salsa. And while you’re at it, pick up on the good vibes illustrated in another of Mr. Brown’s quotes, this time from a catsup lover: “hold on to your buns. I enjoy mayo, mustard and ketchup on my hot dog. Ummm Ummm good.” Oh, zim, you ask if I eat catsup on dogs. Sure. But not those long strips of cucumber, please – they make me feel, I don’t know, nervous. Wed Aug 28 15:11:28 -0700 2002 602019 0 David Hammond 4 602027 Wow !!! Wed Aug 28 15:28:36 -0700 2002 602024 0 Al 4 602028 LOL. Could you comment on the symbolism of day-glo green relish, chili, etc.? Wed Aug 28 15:29:05 -0700 2002 602024 0 Harry V. 4 602035 At the risk of having my future posts thrown on the couch for analysis, I'd like to highlight your use of the term "hysterical" to describe the author's allegedly repressed-fear-induced blatherings, and ask whether you chose the term specifically for its complex and rather controversial history. This of course opens a Pandora's Box ;) of possibilities regarding the author's fear of, and this Board's recent obsession with, ketchup. Wed Aug 28 16:28:14 -0700 2002 602024 0 JeffB 5 602037 I am familiar with Freud's use of the word, and why he used it. Wed Aug 28 16:46:55 -0700 2002 602035 0 David Hammond 1 602050 Given the spate of advertising and chowhound interest in the subject, I just ordered McDonald's "big grill" bow-wow. . .without the ketchup. I could only manage two bites, and the second one was difficult. A greater monstrosity may exist, but I haven't had it. This was a fat dog, with an odd rust coloring to it, and an extremely off-putting, earthy-in-a-bad-way flavor. Very hard to bite into--not because of any skin that would cause a snap, but just because it was very tough and dense. Bun was plain, relish was just what you'd expect if you bought a jar of the house brand at Dominick's, and the onions were done as julienned strands, not chopped. For a Chicago-based menu item, from a Chicago-based company with legions of R&D people (some of whom must be Chicagoans), this is an extremely poor attempt. They did an adequate job with the Johnsonville brat item, so it's not as if a hot dog should be so totally beyond them. I wasn't expecting Gene & Jude's. . .or even Demon Dogs. I actually thought it might be an acceptably bland rendition of an Oscar Mayer object. But this was really quite preposterous. Wed Aug 28 21:31:47 -0700 2002 602013 0 Old School 2 602085 Not surprising. They have lobster rolls on their menu in Maine and New Hampshire, and once with a carload of kids who had been promised happy meals and nothing else would do but McD's, I tried one. Not worth eating, and it's hard to say that about a lobster roll. Thu Aug 29 15:01:23 -0700 2002 602050 0 annieb