110589 Sun Apr 21 21:14:46 -0700 2002 53 7 Chicago Area 0 597111 Look on most American kitchen tables, and there’s a 99.999% probability that you’ll probably find salt and black pepper, the yin and yang of Western condiments. Me, I’m getting bored. Now, instead of always using regular salt, I’m using celery salt (which I bought to make Chicago style dogs for a poker party, and found I liked on almost everything – except celery) and instead of black pepper, I’m using a small jar of powdered chipotle pepper that I got from Penzey’s. I’m not saying I use these salt and black pepper alternatives on everything – but they do offer a different taste for some everyday food items. I’d be interested in hearing what others use as everyday condiments to keep the taste buds alive. Sun Apr 21 21:14:46 -0700 2002 0 David Hammond 1 597113 I keep a shaker of cayenne, a shaker of mixed salt, fresh ground black pepper, and cayenne, and a shaker of mixed salt, sugar, cinnamon, cayenne, and citric acid (for sweet potato fries. Sun Apr 21 22:01:57 -0700 2002 597111 0 ironmom 2 597115 You mention a "shaker of mixed salt, sugar, cinnamon, cayenne, and citric acid" for sweet potato fries -- that's interesting and it sounds like it would be good on sweet potato frieds, but do you use that combo for anything else? Sun Apr 21 22:11:59 -0700 2002 597113 0 David Hammond 3 597129 Dave, you may get more comments if you post this on the general board. However, if there was ever a posting to get the "condiment queen's" reaction on, this would be it. My condiment choices tend to run toward the hot sauce variety (As well as keeping soy and fish sauce in little pourer bottles). I'm not really a chile head and thus avoid the capsecin (sp?) based ones with the cute names. The ones I use pretty regularly are tapatio (which i think has a real similarity to arthur bryant's bbq sauce albeit with a little kick), and tamazula extra hot for when i need a little more heat and less liquid. I've also been using a roasted chili paste I found on argyle in place of sriracha in my asian stuff with results i really like, a very smoky flavor. Another one on the asian front i like is one you usually find labeled as "chili sauce for chicken" it's kinda sweet, a little tangy and a little hot, its nice for deep fried tofu. Mon Apr 22 10:10:49 -0700 2002 597115 0 zim 4 597131 Dave, I don't consider salt and pepper and there derivatives to be condiments. They are seasonings. My new found favorite condiment is horseradish. Especially horseradish mustard. I just tried making my own using dijohn mustard and horseradish. I also like the flavor of horseradish sauce made with just horseradish and mayonaise and horseradish by itself is great with some meats. Paulette Mon Apr 22 10:20:08 -0700 2002 597129 0 Paulette 5 597138 Since I was a kid I have kept a shaker of Jane's Krazy Mixed-Up Salt. (Well, I guess my dad kept it for much of that time.) I suppose now it's hardly exotic, being mainly salt, garlic powder and a few stray seasonings (I suspect MSG, too), but it certainly seemed more exciting than plain old salt and pepper in Kansas in the 70s, and even today a tomato is not a tomato without a sprinkle of it. I have a theory that it makes you use less salt since you're getting all these other flavors, but I would be afraid to subject the theory to any sort of verification. Mon Apr 22 11:49:45 -0700 2002 597131 0 Mike G 4 597133 Yes, I tried Tamazula extra hot at Las Islas Marias and really liked it -- bought some at Aquas Calientes. We have fish sauce, but tend to use it just on rice dishes. I guess my sense of how to use this condiment is limited -- any suggestions? PS: I'm sure you're right that I'd get more responses to this question on the general board, but I'm more interested in hearing from the Chicago community (as I have from you, OKrent, and Paulette). Mon Apr 22 10:48:20 -0700 2002 597129 0 David Hammond 5 597143 Dave, since i am a staple rice eater -rice dishes means quite a bit of food for me . basically i use fish sauce like salt for thai and vietnamese dishes. a couple more seasonings/condiments/stuff to put on food Sumac - nice tangy taste, great for roast potatoes zatar - middle eastern thymey taste good with rice, kabobs, falafel etc Mon Apr 22 12:07:24 -0700 2002 597133 0 zim 3 597149 Nope. Just sweet potato fries. Mon Apr 22 12:18:39 -0700 2002 597115 0 ironmom 2 597357 Ironmom, Is your sweet potato fry condiment basically a "to taste" recipe, or do you have anything more exact? My kid is coming home from college tomorrow, and I'd like to prepare it for her -- along with a turkey breast, etc. I'm especially unclear about "mixed salt" and the citric acid -- what's "mixed salt," and what are the quantities? Please email to me directly if it's a secret recipe. Thanks. Thu Apr 25 23:24:00 -0700 2002 597113 0 David Hammond 3 597379 Try this: 1/4 cup sugar 1 tablespoon salt 1/4 teaspoon citric acid 1 teaspoon cinnamon 1/2 teaspoon cayenne, or to taste Fri Apr 26 20:05:57 -0700 2002 597357 0 ironmom 1 597130 Vinegar. Rice, balsamic, and cider. Splash it on veggies, potatoes, soup, stew, etc. Especially great with anything fried. And paprika. Eggs must be eaten with a sprinkle of salt and paprika. Mon Apr 22 10:15:17 -0700 2002 597111 0 A Okrent 2 597170 Lemon juice is a must. Upgraded the Morton's and McCormick's to sea salt and fresh-ground pepper years ago. A jar in the cabinet always contains cinnamon and sugar mixed to taste for cinnamon toast. Shoyu, Dijon mustard (smooth and grainy), decent 20-year-old balsamic vinegar, occasional Worcestershire sauce (Lea & Perrins, out of childhood habit), togarashi now & then (dang you, C. H. Trotter, for a seasoning I have to shop out-of-the-way for or make myself!), and different pepper sauces for different needs (default: standard Tabasco) more or less round out the list. Oops: forgot catsup; burgers are naked without it. Mon Apr 22 17:17:40 -0700 2002 597130 0 Lady T 2 597180 I think paprika must be a more subtle taste than my crude taste buds can detect. It looks nice on eggs, but I get no taste tingle. Must be me. What's it taste like, anyway? Mon Apr 22 23:05:26 -0700 2002 597130 0 David Hammond 3 597184 Really good paprika is hard to find unless you order it from some place like Penzeys.com. The best is Hungarian and it has a smokey rich red pepper taste that is fantastic. You can get sweet and hot paprika as well as smoked. When it is really fresh and high quality it is fantastic. Poor paprika tastes like dust. Tue Apr 23 01:44:15 -0700 2002 597180 0 The Rogue 4 597190 Yeah, I'm spoiled. My paprika was made at home by a farmer I knew in Kalocsa, Hungary--home of the only paprika museum in the world, or at least the only one I've ever seen. The good stuff makes a big difference. Tue Apr 23 09:38:00 -0700 2002 597184 0 A Okrent 5 597191 A-O and Rogue, You've convinced me that I should seek out high-quality paprika. The red paprika can in our cupboard does contain what Rogue described as stuff that tastes like "dust," and I guess (in the absence of a local Paprika museum) that I should pay a call on Penzey's. As I think about it, the paprika I have is probably 1) mediocre and 2) old, because the only time we use it is on deviled eggs. Thanks for the tip. David Tue Apr 23 09:53:14 -0700 2002 597190 0 David Hammond 6 597196 Dave, Let me second the good paprika bit. My husband hated paprika until I tried the good stuff. Penzy's is a good choice in your area. I get mine at the spice house in the city (same family). I recently so something on Food TV about Spanish Paprika which is suppose to have a subtler flavor and was used to make a Chicken Wing Tapas on Food 911. Paulette Tue Apr 23 10:21:38 -0700 2002 597191 0 Paulette 7 597201 hi dave, i'd like to urge you to switch from mail ordering from penzey's in milwaukee to supporting patty penzey erd and her husband tom's local 2 stores, the spice house(s). they have wonderful paprika, as well as everything else ground fresh weekly. i discovered smoked hungarian paprika a few years ago, and it was revolutionary. try it on eggs or potatoes (potato salad,too). its fabulous. they also have the finest hungarian paprikas, sweet and hot. if you get on their mailing list, you'll get a monthly emailed coupon for a 10%discount. the spice house,1941 central st., evanston, (847)328-3711 or 1512 n. wells, chicago (312)274-0378 their website is www.thespicehouse.com Tue Apr 23 10:35:51 -0700 2002 597196 0 joan 8 597207 Hey Joan, I buy from Penzey's in Oak Park, which is in the neighborhood (though I understand Penzey's main offices are in Milwaukee). I have heard good things about the Spice House, though. Patsy Penzey Erd must be related to the Penzey's -- what's the story there? David Tue Apr 23 12:33:25 -0700 2002 597201 0 David Hammond 9 597227 Dave: Penzy's in Milwaukee is the original and is owned by the father. It is wholesale as well as mail order. The one in Oak Park Penzy's and the one in Evanston and on Wells are brother & sister. When they first opened on Wells the sister said that the one in Oak Park was mostly mail order (how true I don't know). Don't know if they had a falling out or that each wanted their own business hence the two names. Paulette Tue Apr 23 14:42:28 -0700 2002 597207 0 Paulette 10 597233 I checked the the Spice Store website and they credit Pa Penzey with giving them their "sense of spice" (or something like that). Also, the Spice Store has a Milwaukee location, too. Penzey's in Oak Park is, I believe, just about 100% walk-in retail -- I'm pretty sure all mail order is handled out of Milwaukee. Tue Apr 23 15:11:11 -0700 2002 597227 0 David Hammond 8 597209 I do the drive every few months to the Penzey's branch in Conneticut since I would rather support a local store as well. I also find they sometimes have items not in the catalog such as kashmere saffron when there was a quality saffron shortage a few years ago. Tue Apr 23 12:49:58 -0700 2002 597201 0 The Rogue 7 597281 Spanish paprika can be very good. (I have no experience with Hungarian paprika.) My favorite is the smoked sweet paprika from la vera, although there is also unsmoked sweet, smoked and unsmoked hot and smoked and unsmoked bittersweet to choose from. Wed Apr 24 13:51:24 -0700 2002 597196 0 Meg 6 597200 I agree that paprika should be more than just there for its coloring. A couple of things to add: - I read or heard once, that you should keep paprika in the fridge, and so I do. I am not sure if that is proper, but I also use penzy's. - I watched Wolfgang Puck do a show on chicken paprikash. He first showed a guy making a vast quantity of this dish in Austria, and then he cooked a reasonable size portion for his audience. Both versions featured WAY more paprika that you could imagine. I mean tons of the stuff, so it is my suspicion to really get the paprika flavor, you need to use not just paprika dust, but more than a dusting of paprika See what cool nuggets this thread as wrought! Rob Tue Apr 23 10:31:41 -0700 2002 597191 0 Vital Information 1 597174 Furikake, dried seaweed based Japanese rice seasoning. Numerous blends. Looks and smells suspiciously like fish food. Addictively good. Might have something to do with the MSG. We like to alarm guests by asking them to pass the fish food. And Sriracha hot sauce - which I actually do like on hot dogs unlike celery salt. Mon Apr 22 21:38:30 -0700 2002 597111 0 Louisa Chu 1 597185 My favorite condiments are high quality four or five pepper blends (white, black, pink, green, szechuan) freshly ground, ground celery seed, my homemade preserved lemons and limes- sweet, as well as spicy, and herbed, the garlic chili paste from the folks who make sriracha sauce (this is wonderful stuff), my homemade hot and spicy sweet maple syrup vinegar, heinz ketchup but used as a secret ingredient for cooking or else only on fries or burgers, fresh high quality garlic powder (from Penzeys- the best I ever had), the aforementioned Penzeys chipotle powder, and medium quality balsamic vinegar (the good stuff is too expensive except for a once a year treat) Tue Apr 23 01:53:50 -0700 2002 597111 0 The Rogue 2 597186 Sounds like we both do a little shopping at Penzey's -- I have always been semi-oppposed to garlic powder, but on your recommendation, I will try it (it's so convenient -- and probably the way to go for fast garlic toast). I'm not trying to start anything, but why catsup only as a "secret" ingredient? Tue Apr 23 04:40:13 -0700 2002 597185 0 David Hammond 3 597208 Personally I like Heinz ketchup (Only Heinz) on certain foods such as burgers and fries. I was a mustard man for hot dogs (Nathan's mustard is my current favorite) but am switching over to Huy Fong brand garlic chili sauce for dogs at home. Otherwise I would rather have some condiment with a bit more interesting a flavor. In cooking a splash of ketchup is a quick and easy way to add a touch of sweetness and tang to the dish/soup. For some reason it helps round out the flavors. My mother, the worlds worst cook, started doing ths and her soups actually became edible. So I played around with it and found it really is a flavor booster. When I attended the French Culinary Institute I mentioned this to several chefs who taught and ran the place and every one said, off the record, that they use it as well. I won't mention names since I was asked not to but one is one of the top chefs in the world... Tue Apr 23 12:44:33 -0700 2002 597186 0 The Rogue 4 597223 Rogue -- it was good to read your comment that when you mentioned the "flavor boosting" powers of catsup at the French Culinary Institute,"several chefs who taught and ran the place... said, off the record, that they use it as well. I won't mention names since I was asked not to but one is one of the top chefs in the world..." I am particularly gratified to hear that the generally recalcitrant French are coming around -- and I am very close to resting my case for catsup as a condiment worthy of respect. Tue Apr 23 14:12:31 -0700 2002 597208 0 David Hammond 5 597229 Glad to hear. Only you keep spelling it wrong. ;-)> Tue Apr 23 14:45:56 -0700 2002 597223 0 The Rogue 6 597231 You know, when I started the Catsup Controversy a week or so ago, I spelled it that way to get the "C" alliteration -- but, frankly, I'm not sure which spelling is correct. I did note, however, that Atomicman felt that the spelling of this increasingly popular condiment says something about the speller (wasn't sure how to take that). Tue Apr 23 15:06:14 -0700 2002 597229 0 David Hammond 7 597234 Hi David, My American Heritage dictionary says Catsup is a variant of Ketchup. My Oxford Companion to Food, lists only Ketchup. I'm not going to quibble, cuz I like it no matter how you spell it! pat Tue Apr 23 15:21:09 -0700 2002 597231 0 Pat Hammond 8 597249 Ketchup is also a necessary ingredient to some Chinese things I make. Isn't there a Chinese Chef out there who would weigh in and talk about ketchup? Tue Apr 23 20:08:33 -0700 2002 597234 0 JoanB 9 597250 I've been defending catsup against hugely unfair and irrationally biased assaults for a week or so now, and even I am surprised that it's included in Chinese cooking. As it's not a native of the Asia, it seems like this condiment must be a substitute for some other, perhaps more costly or exotic, fruit. Tue Apr 23 20:49:30 -0700 2002 597249 0 David Hammond 10 597252 well, I'm not a chinese chef, but I've cooked a few chinese recipes that called for ketchup. I also vaguely remembering that ketchup is a bastardization of an originally indonesian sauce that the dutch rendering into sounding like ketchup - it isn't that far a stretch if you think of some of the sambals. Does anyone know about this more definitively? Tue Apr 23 21:28:39 -0700 2002 597250 0 zim 11 597253 Oh man, this catsup controversy gets more interesting by the day. I did a search, and found an article on the origin of the word "ketchup" (link is indicated below), but here's a key point, "The most popular theory is that the word ketchup was derived from "koe-chiap" or "ke-tsiap" in the Amoy dialect of China, where it meant the brine of pickled fish or shellfish. Some people prefer the Malayan word "kechap" (spelled ketjap by the Dutch), which may have come from the Chinese in the first place. In any case, some time in the late seventeenth century, the name and perhaps some samples arrived in England where it appeared in print as "catchup" in 1690 and then as "ketchup" in 1711. These names stuck with the British, who quickly appropriated them for their own pickled condiments of anchovies or oysters." Link: http://www.nickyee.com/ponder/ketchup.html Tue Apr 23 21:45:46 -0700 2002 597252 0 David Hammond 11 597254 The Indonesian sauce/flavour agent kecap manis. It has the consistency of oyster sauce. The usual suspects include palm sugar, H20, water, soy, wheat, preservatives, and stuff like lemongrass. Erik M. Tue Apr 23 22:28:16 -0700 2002 597252 0 Erik M. 5 597232 he didn't mention anything about hot dogs though (g) Tue Apr 23 15:08:32 -0700 2002 597223 0 zim 2 597287 My grandmother used to rub Ketchup all over a chicken and then roast it. Very tasty! Wed Apr 24 15:29:38 -0700 2002 597185 0 leek 3 597297 Years ago I learned this simple baked beans recipe. Canned white beans navy, great nothern or butter As much that will fit in your pot. 1 bottle of ketchup 1 cup of brown sugar 1 tbsp of yellow mustard Throw all into a pot and mix well. Lay bacon on top and bake at 350 for 1 hour. The amount of beans vary, the sugar and mustard may vary but it is always one bottle of ketchup. Sometimes it is more liquid sometimes dryer. Paulette Wed Apr 24 19:04:44 -0700 2002 597287 0 Paulette 4 597301 What size bottle of ketchup? A 12oz or a 64 oz? Wed Apr 24 19:34:10 -0700 2002 597297 0 The Rogue 5 597320 Years ago, my wife and I were on a quest to find the perfect cocktail sauce. We searched high and low, at little markets and chains, at fish stores and gourmet shops…and then we discovered: you can make the stuff! Now, we make the best cocktail sauce around, and the main ingredient is, of course, catsup. It’s so simple: catsup, horseradish, lemon juice, maybe a little pepper. All to taste. Fresh lemon juice makes a huge difference, as does good horseradish – the catsup holds it all together, being, as it is, the undisputed foundation of American condiment culture. Thu Apr 25 11:53:50 -0700 2002 597301 0 David Hammond 5 597362 I think it is either a 12 or 20oz bottle. I know it is not a giant size. By the way Dave, this was the most requested bring to the Bar B Q or have at the bar BQ item. Goes great with hot dogs, hamburgers, chicken etc. Paulette Fri Apr 26 11:11:31 -0700 2002 597301 0 Paulette 6 597364 Thanks Paulette -- I think I'll just keep adding the tomato elixer until it looks right. Actually, we might make this tonight -- daughter coming home from college for the weekend, and your beans sound like ultimate comfort food. Incidentally, now that I know you have an appreciation for the red Food of the Gods (though I was a little thrown by your initial comments regarding Flukey's and ketchup on Chicago hot dogs), you might want to check out Planet Ketchup, link below. Link: http://www.ketchup.wonderland.org/ Fri Apr 26 11:40:57 -0700 2002 597362 0 David Hammond 7 597371 Ketchup has its place, hamburgers, french fries, even scrambled eggs although this does gross out my son, but never on hot dogs. Paulette Fri Apr 26 15:27:17 -0700 2002 597364 0 Paulette 4 597304 Paulette, This recipe is so simple -- I love it. I can make it with my kids. Also, because it's so simple, my kids will eat it all and clamor for more. Thank you...and thanks to catsup, a truly marvelous ingredient in so many dishes. Wed Apr 24 22:05:00 -0700 2002 597297 0 David Hammond 3 597431 A tuna salad that I make from Penelope Casas book Tapas uses olive oil, mustard, catsup, and a little finely chopped onion. It always gets rave reviews--in a sandwich, stuffed inside piquillo peppers, on crackers. And you can take it out to a picnic. Mon Apr 29 17:58:06 -0700 2002 597287 0 annieb 4 597444 Would not "ensalada russo", the spanish mixture of tuna salad and russian dressing also contain ketchup? Rob Mon Apr 29 22:55:00 -0700 2002 597431 0 Vital Information 5 597450 VI and Annie bring up a very fine point: catsup seems like it would be excellent with tuna. I haven't tried it, but I definitely will on my next tuna salad. Usually I go with mustard, but catsup sounds perfect. Thanks you two, for further expanding my appreciation for the tangy sweet essence of the love apple. Mon Apr 29 23:22:36 -0700 2002 597444 0 David Hammond 5 597459 Good question, VI. My experience with ensalada russa is via Brasil, where it is basically a mound of potato salad covered with homemade mayonnaise and garnished with various veggies and hard-boiled eggs--more along the Italian lines. I'll have to look up some Spanish recipes and see it. The tuna I refer to is more along the lines of tuna salad as we know it here--a paste to spread on bread, whatever. Tue Apr 30 10:17:32 -0700 2002 597444 0 annieb 1 597236 Until the Condiment Queen checks in, with, what may (or may not) be the last word on the subject, I want to remind everyone of the ultimate condiment (for now). Paula Wolfert in her great, great book on Morocco (Couscous and Other Good Food from Morocco) discusses the spice mix called ras el hanout--sounds like a villian in a James Bond flick. She notes that it can contain ten, twenty-six, even 100 ingredients!. Copy right restrictions prevent me from listing all the ingredients in a mixture she de-coded from Morocco. Needless to say beyond allspice, black pepper, nutmeg and tumeric, it contained two kinds of cinnamon, ash berries and something called grains of paradise (and believe me I am skipping a lot). She includes a version that is possible to make in the US without visiting the witch doctor. Try some of that on your hard boiled eggs! Ms. Wolfert also notes it makes a great addition to coffee. The ultimate condiment is also an excuse to plug this book, now almost 30 years old. Reading and re-reading this book helped create this food obsessive that I am, it also helped me get to Morocco for a wonderful trip many years ago. Equally thrilling reading beside the ras el hanout, is the listing of 50 chicken dishes from the Moroccan city of Tetuan. If an ultimate cook book does not need color glossy pictures, this is it. Great recipes, a sense of the place and knowledge to burn. Rob Tue Apr 23 16:35:59 -0700 2002 597111 0 Vital Information 2 597238 Fascinated by VI's words about Ras el Hanout, I found that it probably has no fixed recipe, and that "Ras el hanout means "head of the shop," or the "best of the best," and that only the finest, and often the most esoteric, ingredients are used. The Ras El Hanout mixture (according to this source) contains allspice, black pepper, mace, nutmeg, cumin, clove, cardamom, turmeric and gingerroot, and dried rosebuds. Ras el Hanout is distinctively Moroccan in character, and is commonly used during the winter months in foods intended to warm the body. Use it to season game, to blend with rice, couscous, tagines. Use with discretion: not only is it a rich and deeply warming spice, it is a purported aphrodisiac!" That's good to know. Tue Apr 23 17:14:24 -0700 2002 597236 0 David Hammond 3 597240 A friend brought me some back from morocco. It was very tasty but i didn't notice the other special powers. Of course that could have been from the subject of the experiment rather than the object used in the experiment (g) If folks are very interested, I can see if I still have some around. Tue Apr 23 17:21:08 -0700 2002 597238 0 zim