110535 Sat Apr 06 16:06:33 -0800 2002 85 7 Chicago Area 0 596735 Long will the halls of Chowdom echo with the slurps and burps of those who, ignoring the constraints of space and time and normal human physiology, did in a mere 24 hours of near continuous consumption visit well nigh 24 zones of food and related fun, eating beyond hunger, eating beyond reason, eating …because it felt good. During this one-day odyssey, ports of call included: · Manny’s · La Milanese · Filbert’s · Ramova Grill · Ed’s Potsticker House · Alice’s · Jimmy’s Woodlawn Tap · Freddy’s · Johnnie’s · Masa · Maywood Park Racetrack · Matchbox · Goose Island Shrimp · Lakeview Lounge · San Soo Gap San · Markello’s · Waveland Bowl · Edna’s · Kimchee Museum (drive-by) · Bale (two visits) · Shan · Vign Phat · Sea World · Berghoff For me, a memorable mini-meal was had at Ramova Grill, which offers a bowl of chili for a highly reasonable $2.00 ($2.10 without the beans). Cinnamon-touched and slightly soupy, this simple fare is served with several bags of oyster crackers in a barstool-lined and really rather small room, with wooden booths and hand-painted signs that look like they haven’t changed much (except for the pricing) in maybe 60 years. Don’t’ expect anything fancy – this place is the real thing and not ashamed of it. No doubt, more will be said of all this in posts to come. Sat Apr 06 16:06:33 -0800 2002 0 David Hammond 1 596736 Sorry I missed it. I am an out of town San Diegian who is hitting Chicago Monday 8th and Tuesday 9th, departing O hare 8pm Wednesday 10th. What was the consensus of must hit spots? Should I identify as a hound? What a great idea! Where is the "Vital Information" post? V Sat Apr 06 19:46:09 -0800 2002 596735 0 Victor Lieberman 2 596741 Hey Victor, I can't speak for the group, but I think most of us would agree that a "must hit" would be Johnnie's for Italian beef. You're coming in and out of O'Hare, and Johnnie's is about 25 minutes from the airport, so this particular Chowhound favorite is probably the way to go. Johnnie's 7500 W. North Elmwood Park, IL For more on this, check out thread listed below (there are also many other posts about this fine establishment). Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/109983#593166 Sun Apr 07 11:30:08 -0700 2002 596736 0 David Hammond 3 599001 thanks, I need to have another Italian beef anyway because I ordered the wrong peppers the first time at Johnies. Thu Jun 06 01:33:51 -0700 2002 596741 0 victor lieberman 4 599007 Victor, I do not know if you have perused this, but this post/reaction from a visitor from SF should be the prototypical interaction between Chicago hounds and other hounds. Plenty of great suggestions packed inside. Rob Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/110768#598493 Thu Jun 06 09:20:00 -0700 2002 599001 0 Vital Information 2 596745 Dave's aftermath listing gives the full range of our activities. Amazingly, we completed nearly everything we set out to do in our pre-event planning. Here's how we compared to our original schedule and how we differed: - We showed incredible restraint at Manny's. Me, I thought I'd end up quaffing a sandwich or two in the adrenaline rush out the gate. Instead, we split this way and that way and saved stomach room for things to come. This meant we could eat deli, breaded steak sandwiches, old time chili and authentically greasy Chinese street food all within 2.5 hours. Pacing works! - We handled the issue about where to eat south-side bbq (take-out only) by hauling our stuff over to the singular UofChicago bar, Jimmy's Woodlawn Tap. This afforded us a beer break, the chance to see the Cubs lose, and a table. Serious seepage, however, from the original timetable. - We skipped cars on spindles, Old Fashioned Candies and a variety of other sights near and in Cicero, but made it to Freddy's unique shop and food stand for samples and big cups of gelato. When we do 24 hours of Cicero and Berwyn, very possible, believe me, we will catch up on these spots. - Because of the lost time, we had no room for forays into Irish bars in Forest Park or samples of Parky french-fries. Again, perhaps another time. - Yet, we made it to Johnny's Italian Beef stand almost exactly on time at 7 pm. It hardly bothered anyone that we had just eaten big cups of Italian ice cream. We finally took in some caffeine at next door Masa. - DaveH deserves special kudos for his suggestion of the racetrack. Not only did it give us a reason to trek to Johnny's, it took our minds, briefly, off the need to eat again. We spent more time there than I expected. I practically imagined that we'd go in, bet a race and say, been there/done that, let's book. No, we fit right in amongst the demimonde. The remodeled Maywood Park impressed with its snazzy Vegas sport's book look even though it slightly disappointed by being no longer genuinely sleazy. More time off the original schedule, but it was an enjoyable diversion. Some of us even won. - Going practically nonstop now for near ten hours, you would not be surprised if the interchange of car to public transportation from DaveH's home in Oak Park did not proceed with the snap-precision of a NASCAR pit crew. We did experience the thrill of Dave's youngest daughter and her sleeping-over friends when they received a call from the older sister live from the N'Sync concert. A just missed train further delayed our departure from Oak Park. - Since the Matchbox bar is, I had wanted to show up early enough to get decent stools there. Since we showed up there two hours later, there was no room. We stayed around long enough to watch bartender Jackie create the world's longest lemon twist. So, further behind schedule and further behind in manhattan consumption we departed. - Two cars left Matchbox at roughly the same time, one car showed up soon thereafter at the deliciously divvy Lakeview Lounge. At the Lakeview, they drank bottles of cheap beer and rocked to three aged hippies playing Rolling Stones covers all the while being photographed incessantly. The other car somehow found the path between Matchbox and Lakeview blocked by the fabo Goose Island Shrimp shop. What the shrimp eaters gained in breading, they lost in fermentation because when they showed up at Lakeview, there was pressure to eat again. - I know it was after 2 pm when we entered the 24 Korean bbq joint because no soju for us. Meat yes. Tons of it, plus seafood pancakes, raw oysters wrapped in "bacon", panchan after panchan, tofu soup, and of course, great rice. Believe me, this was a feast for a week, let alone as part of a trek. What it lacked, however, was an ending. So, we carted off to the 24 hour Guatamalan/Mexican bakery for several sweets and pastries. Bowling seemed like a good idea at this point. - We made our first actual deviation here beyond timing. Our plan was to follow Korean with a Paki-cabbi joint. We went bowling first. To be honest, this was major mistake. While I harbored a bit of inner sadness over my inability to convince nehari on my overworked gullet, the actual mistake was not what we ate (or did not eat), but where we went bowling. Waveland offered lanes but nothing else. It had all the charm of a franchise, and it was expensive to boot. We could only manage one game at their extortionate prices. This left us with the dreaded blackhole at around 5 am. - We considered a cabbie joint and Atomicman pushed hard for a second shrimp run, but we decided to just stall until we could drive to Edna's for its opening. What we should have done in retrospect, is not gone to the closest bowling alley. Instead, we should have gone to Miami Bowl (or even Marigold). It would have taken us longer at 4 am, but that extra time would have compensated for the wasted time after Waveland. In other words, time traveling seems productive, time spent playing video games seems wasteful. Plus, those other alleys would have afforded more atmosphere. - We recovered enough to eat full breakfasts at Edna's; then, headed for the Vietnamese area of Argyle. Along the way, one car passed the kimchee museum. We needed to shop a bit before pho to stir up hunger, when it came to me. A cabbie joint, Shan, happened to be within walking distance of us. I thought at first that we'd just get a few samosa's and sweets to satisfy this urge and continue, but once the curryrific odors hit us, we knew a meal was in order. Zim did a masterful job of communicating for us. Who says you cannot eat brains for breakfast, and who says you cannot eat brains for breakfast twice as we had some brains and eggs at Edna's on top of the brains marsala at Shan. - We emerged from Shan fuller than ever at around 9:30 am. There still was little enthusiasm for pho. You could surely feel the energy leaving the group. As the originator of the event, I felt qualified to announce that our obligation to the chowdown could be considered complete. We were close to public transportation therefore accessible to our various homes and day jobs. In fact, Zim needed to meet his wife, kids and mom for an Indian lunch in a few hours. I knew the bathes were low on everyone's list but mine, and this seemed like a good time to drop that option. - No one pushed me back on the bathhouse. All we figured we needed was to introduce Ben to a Vietnamese sandwich and eat something else on Argyle to say we did it. That completed, we headed for the red line of the El. Patrick, who is a cook in Dekalb Illinois, wanted to check out the new Sur la Table. His buddy DaveH agreed to join him. I considered it, especially as chance to stick together for 24. Sur la Table, was thematically related to eating (a cookware store), it was also a place to get Ms. VI a present. But I decided to bag Sur la Table and head home too. Leave it to ReneG to save the day. - How about a last beer or two at the Berghoff, he asked, the bar voted most likely to show up in heaven. Sur la Table dropped out. We had kept the Berghoff off the original schedule because there is no way to park cars downtown during the day without paying huge fees (and the Berghoff closes early). To get the Berghoff into the chowathon menu, to make it 24 and to have a parting shot (literally--the 14 year old Van Winkle Rye), what an idea. We accomplished all that and even divvied up a roast beef sandwich. Of all the dishes at Berghoff, we chose roast beef because the original meal at Manny's, many many hours earlier, also included a roast beef sandwich. We had finished. Shortly after noon, we exited. It was sunny. Vive le chow! Rob Sun Apr 07 22:53:43 -0700 2002 596736 0 Vital Information 3 596747 Damn I'm having a phogasm reading this stuff... you're killing me... wish I'd been there... have to get something like this going in NY. Congratulations of what sounds like an amazing event. (phogasm- a food orgasm. The name derives from the first time I had excellent pho and started to subvocally whimper and moan in pleasure.) Mon Apr 08 02:10:30 -0700 2002 596745 0 The Rogue 4 599000 Sorry it took me a while to get back to this part of chowhound world. Thanks to Vital Info for an amazing recount. I am hitting Chicago again week of June 10th to partake. Last trip I made it to Johnnies Italian Beef and it was more than worth it. You guys make me proud. A friend once wrote about me, "Victor likes to eat big and jump around," but I see I am an amateur with much to learn. Thu Jun 06 01:30:06 -0700 2002 596747 0 Victor Lieberman 1 596738 As my mind and body begins to assimiliate, digest, and expel the various overloads of the last 24 hours, I thought I'd get some early random thoughts out. More sure to follow, especially regarding the actual food. Chowathon 2002 owes its primary success to the four individuals who provided transportation at various points during the quest. DaveH, Atomicman, Joan and SethZ, we could not have done this without your wheels. It was especially amazing how time after time, our cars arrived at the next spot at the same time, even though each individual car made its own meandering's (with a few notable exceptions). I mean, two cars could leave Hyde Park, on one end of Chicago, drive straight across town to another area, Cicero, use different but equally scenic (i.e., non-expressway) approaches, and get to the next place simultaneously. Much thanks to all who drove. Every chowhound aboard contributed their own special moments that made the day truly worthwhile, but three things stand out right now. First, the generosity of Patrick who willingly and unvolntarily offered his track winings at various moments as payments to our costs. Second, to Zim, who proved that even after 18 or so hours of chowing, one could still find the best brains masala in the USA, and finally to the indefatigable ReneG who figured out the perfect finale to the event and allowed a core group to actually make it 24 hours. Your idea kept us going. I fully expect that while I stay home tonight, you are yet again out finding ideas for the rest of us. For the record, six hounds appeared at Manny's at noon. Four hounds closed the festivities at Berghoff at noon the next day. Neatly symmetrical, roast beef sandwiches were eaten on the first and last meals. Three hounds DaveH, Patrick and myself were there from start to finish, with ReneG missing the actual Manny's meal (how picky, I know!) but otherwise also being there the whole time. At the largest point, there were 18 in our party, at the smallest, 4. As usual at these events, Hyde Park was over-repersented through-out. More to come from me and others Rob Sat Apr 06 22:49:59 -0800 2002 596735 0 Vital Information 2 596743 One impression that stood out from this weekend’s episodic overeating was how much some of the restaurants seemed to enjoy serving us (I may be kidding myself – not that unusual). Though at every stop (excepting maybe one or two), we elected not to identify ourselves as Chowhounds-on-a-Mission, it seemed clear at several if not most locations that we were not “regulars.” The way we looked and the way we looked at stuff probably signalled our “otherness.” So people in restaurants maybe made the effort to make sure we were enjoying ourselves. At La Milanese (3156 May) a group of elderly folks sat in the back at a “special” table, maybe a little suspicious, but the counterman was in tune with small comments we made and questions we had, making an effort to please even though he was probably quite sure he would see few of us ever again. We had a moment. About the food: big, hearty “I’m-damn-hungry-so-feed-me” sandwiches of lightly breaded steak, with hot peppers. Best to share. At Shah (5060-A N Sheridan), a Pakistani cabbie joint, I had several interactions with the cashier, who seemed appropriately solicitous and maybe curiously intrigued. Amazingly, the big gal waitress at Ramova (3510 S. Halsted) was not overtly hostile – according to Rene, she was the friendliest she had ever been. And although the griddleman looked at us with a mixture of contempt and indifference, at no point (as far as I could tell) did he attempt to strike us. The nice older lady at Edna’s (3175 W Madison) came by several times to make sure I consumed and liked all my salmon croquets and that Ben was enjoying his eggs and brains. We were. There were 8 or 9 of us, and we came in right as the place opened, so we probably hit them with more business at one time, and earlier, than they expected, but they rolled with it, and made us feel very welcome. Okay, I knew I had a point, and this was probably it: decent food + caring service = excellent time. Sun Apr 07 21:33:00 -0700 2002 596738 0 David Hammond 1 596740 And to think I'm smug about how much pizza I ate tonight in one establishment. Way to go, guys: can't wait to hear blow-by-blow accounts. Sun Apr 07 00:57:54 -0800 2002 596735 0 Dave Feldman 1 596742 Because I'm in awe of your feats and was unable to join, I wanted to contribute in some way. So, I've provided as many addresses as possible in anticipation of the inevitable requests for same. Missing are Filbert’s, Freddy's, Sea World, and Markello's. Maybe somebody can weigh in with those addresses. Manny's Coffee Shop & Deli 1141 S. Jefferson St Chicago, IL (312) 939-2855 La Milanese Special Deli 3156 S. May St. Chicago, IL (773) 254-9543 Filbert’s ?? Ramova Grill 3510 S. Halsted St. Chicago, IL (773) 847-9058 Ed’s Potsticker House 3139 S. Halsted St. Chicago, IL (312) 326-6898 Alice's Restaurant 5638 W. Chicago Ave. Chicago, IL (773) 921-1100 Jimmy’s Woodlawn Tap 1172 E. 55th St. Chicago, IL (773) 643-5516 Freddy’s ?? Johnnie's Beef 7500 W. North Ave. Elmwood Park, IL (708)452-6000 Massa 7434 W. North Ave. Elmwood Park, IL (708) 453-3104 Matchbox 770 N. Milwaukee Ave Chicago, IL (312) 666-9292 Goose Island Shrimp House 1011 W. Division St. Chicago, IL (312) 642-3640 Lakeview Lounge 5110 N. Broadway St. Chicago, IL (773) 769-0994 San Soo Gab San 5297 N. Western Chicago, IL (773) 334-1589 Markello’s ?? Edna's Restaurant 3175 W. Madison St. Chicago, IL (773) 638-7079 Ba Le French Bakery & Restaurant 5018 N. Broadway Chicago, IL (773) 561-4424 Shan 5060-A N. Sheridan Rd. Chicago, IL (773) 769-4961 Sea World ?? The Berghoff Restaurant 17 W. Adams St. Chicago, IL (312) 427-3170 Sun Apr 07 15:25:17 -0700 2002 596735 0 Paul Tyksins 2 596751 Thanks for the attempt Paul! ReneG actually includes all the addresses in his post (funny, I do not remmember him taking notes). For those attempting to use Paul's list as a model for your own chowathon, note that the Alice's he mentions is not our Alices. Also, while the address of Sea World is not mentione by Rene, this source for live turtles and other fresh fish is two stores west of the Argyle El stop, on the north side of the street. Rob Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/110535#596746 Mon Apr 08 10:01:11 -0700 2002 596742 0 Vital Information 3 596755 Oops! Sorry about the Alice's mistake! Mon Apr 08 10:59:51 -0700 2002 596751 0 Paul Tyksins 1 596744 Just wanted to give a hearty 'thank you' to everyone for a marvelous introduction to the world of Chicago food, and for funding me a little after my meager cash flow dried up. I doubt there will be a time in the foreseable future where I will sample brains at two places in one day. Oh, and by the way, my Vietnamese sandwich-of-horrifying-ingredients made a terrific breakfast the next day. Thanks again! -Ben Sun Apr 07 22:03:42 -0700 2002 596735 0 Tastyllama 1 596746 Eat for 24 hours, then sleep for 24 hours. Quite a routine. Thanks to my extended rest followed by (literally) a quart of coffee I’m ready to provide my account of the proceedings. First, thanks to Rob for the crazy idea and organizing it and especially to those who drove. It was a great time and really quite an adventure. I joined the group at Manny’s (1141 S Jefferson) about 45 minutes late but just had time for a Dr Brown’s cream soda. Then off to La Milanese (3156 S May) for breaded steaks and meatball sandwiches. The steak sandwich was top-notch as usual and the meatball wasn’t half bad either. We decided to hit Filbert’s (3430 S Ashland) first to let the lunch crowd at Ramova thin out. People who wonder why this hometown root beer isn’t more widely distributed will understand after a visit--this is a very small operation. The one guy on duty was very friendly and showed us the ancient bottling line (unfortunately not in operation at the moment). Some picked up cases of root beer ($6 plus deposit) while others just grabbed single bottles out of the cooler. My watermelon soda (or watermellon according to the label) was much better than I expected. At Ramova Grill (3510 S Halsted) it was a bowl of chili for everyone. Zim had an order of fries which were cooked in a pot of fat on the storefront stove, something you don’t see too much these days. Everything about Ramova is from a different era. I have always loved this place. Then a walk several blocks north on Halsted to Ed’s Potsticker House (3139 S Halsted). I especially enjoyed the cigar-shaped house potstickers. We also tried the soup dumplings, water dumplings, and drunken chicken. Back to the cars and off for some barbecue. We decided against Lem’s in order to try a different place, Alice’s BBQ (65 E 43rd), for two large orders of rib tips--one hot, one mild. Not bad but no threat to Lem’s. Instead of dining in the car in true Chicago BBQ tradition, we went to Jimmy’s Woodlawn Tap (1172 E 55th) where we washed it all down with a pitcher of beer as we watched the Cubbies drop their home opener in the snow. The entire west room reeked of barbecue. I had been looking forward to Freddy’s (1600 S 61st, Cicero) and it exceeded expectations. I had been expecting more of a fast-food place; instead it is a small Italian grocery/delicatessen. Most hounds had bowls of homemade gelato while I contented myself with a small lemon ice. The homemade pizza looked excellent as did everything else. I picked up a spinach arancini and some polenta with bacala for later. I’m already looking forward to another visit when I’m able to sample a few more things. Then off to Maywood Park Racetrack where the only thing consumed was a cigar and our money. Actually as a group we didn’t do too badly. I somehow managed to pick 2 medium-longshot winners for my first-ever winning day at the track but Patrick was the big winner of the evening. A little north, at Johnnie’s (7500 W North, Elmwood Park) we met up with Ms. VI and the kids for Italian beef etc. The combo with hot giardiniera was damn good as always but probably not enough to make me shift my allegiance from Al’s. Rob’s kids were great but he really has to train them properly--one ordered ketchup on her hot dog. Then a few doors east to Massa (7434 W North, Elmwood Park) where the energy of the kids, more gelato, and some very welcome espresso rejuvenated us. We vicariously enjoyed the pair of fried dough/gelato creations that were devoured at the neighboring table. To the Matchbox (770 N Milwaukee), courtesy of the CTA, where some of us were able to squeeze in for a quick but excellent Manhattan or glass of wine (I can recommend the T-Vine zin). One of my favorite bars but certainly not the place for a large group. Our car needed to stop at Goose Island Shrimp House (1013 W Division) for a sack of jumbos (poor Joan who had to leave us for several hours had been without food all that time). We finally met up with the other group who had been enjoying drinks and the live music of Night Watch at the inimitable Lakeview Lounge (5110 N Broadway). We also met Monica, her photographer partner, and a couple other hounds who had just missed us at Johnnie’s and the Matchbox. San Soo Gap San (5247 N Western), a 24 hour Korean barbecue, was our next stop where we all took off our shoes and ate. This part of the night is a bit of a blur for me. I was the designated griller for out table (no complaints at all) so others will have to do a recap on the food. All I remember was there was a LOT of it and it was very good. We just missed the 2am deadline for ordering soju and beer which may have been a blessing in disguise. At this point everyone was clamoring for sweets so we decided to visit Markelos (3520 W Lawrence), the all night Guatemalan bakery. After that I think everyone had a new understanding of the word overkill. Bowling was next at the overpriced Waveland Bowl (3700 N Western). I sat out the game but cheered on the rest. Edna’s doesn’t open until 6am so some killed time with various arcade games, Polaroids, and breathing disinfectant fumes. Meanwhile the sun had risen. Traffic was very light and we had an enjoyable drive through the beautiful northwest side. Especially impressive was Logan Boulevard. The other car (containing Zim, of course) needed to stop for a taco break. They unlocked the door for us at Edna’s Soul Food (3175 W Madison) where everyone ordered a hearty breakfast (I was ashamed that all I could manage was a short stack and coffee). Salmon croquettes, eggs, pancakes, French toast, sausage, grits & gravy, gravy & rice, brains & eggs (way to go, Ben!), and biscuits, biscuits, biscuits. On the way to Argyle Street we passed the departed Kimchi Museum whose sign still hangs at 4529 N Ravenswood. Many of the shops and restaurants of Argyle (5000 N) don’t open until 9am so we wandered around looking. Some of the heartier of the group wanted to go for shots at the Red Rooster, a true dive bar, but on that particular Saturday morning opening was delayed until 10:30. Possibly another blessing in disguise. We hadn’t been able to make our planned stop at Kababish (939 N Orleans), an all-night Pakistani cabbie place, but Shan, almost around the corner at 5060 N Sheridan, was an excellent substitute. The breakfast special of aloo bhaji, channa, halwa, and puri is a steal at $3 but the highlight was clearly the amazingly good brain masala. Strong tea was appreciated by all. By this time all the shops were open so we browsed at several Vietnamese shops. People picked up sweets, banh mi, and roasted meats for later. Late that night I truly regretted not picking up at least a sandwich. A few more participants had to leave and the die-hards discussed the baths. At this point we were carless and it seemed like too big a production. If it had been right there I’m sure we would have done it. Next time for sure. Back to the L we headed, intending to check out the new Chicago branch of Seattle’s Sur la Table, but decided instead on drinks at Berghoff’s classic bar (17 W Adams) to finish off the day (and us). We were disappointed to find that the bar doesn’t open until 11:30 on Saturday so we went across the street to the Palmer House to see if Trader Vic’s might be open (it wasn’t). We admired the beautiful lobby of the Palmer House but probably admired their well-maintained restrooms even more. The soft chairs and sofas in the lobby looked awfully inviting but we were on a mission and moved on. A few minutes before 11:30 we checked the Berghoff’s door and it was open! Thanks to Patrick and the ponies, the four of us still standing--remember this is a stand-up bar--toasted with shots of 13 year old rye and a Berghoff dark wash. There was still a little time until noon so it was steins of dark all around and a roast beef sandwich on rye with horseradish. The bartender didn’t even laugh at us when we asked for it to be cut into four pieces. As we staggered off from the Berghoff we all agreed it had been an excellent adventure and we ought to do it again. But not too soon. Sun Apr 07 23:23:37 -0700 2002 596735 0 Rene G 2 596749 Great report. Now to read the others. Mon Apr 08 06:16:59 -0700 2002 596746 0 wrayb 2 596750 We gotta try something like this in NY! The Berghoff...does that bring back memories of graduate school days! I LOVED eating in Chicago! Any suggestions for hounds in other cities who attempt to emulate your feat? Mon Apr 08 07:55:51 -0700 2002 596746 0 Wendy Leonard 3 596760 Reflecting on the gourmandistic extravaganza, I think there are a few points that I feel others in the group would probably support: · Adopt a general but not too-tight itinerary. I was originally in favor of an hour-by-hour schedule, but Rob resisted, and I believe he was right to do so. You don’t want to feel like you’re being pushed to beat the clock. Also, a lack of a rigid schedule allows you to dip into pockets of serendipity such as spontaneous stops at Goose Island Shrimp, Arturo’s, and Shah. · Use cellphones. This now seems like a no-brainer, but posting a phone number where hounds can contact the travelling pack is a good way to get last-minute indications of precise locations. Without a tight itinerary, you need a contact point. · Pace yourself. As Joan pointed out, this was not a pig-out eating contest. If I had to do it over again, I would probably have suggested we order even smaller portions of some items. The idea is to taste, not stuff. Same goes with alcohol: a drink here and there is okay, but as El Taco and others have noted, it was probably a good thing that we hit the all-night Korean joint after the liquor curfew went into effect. · Accept an unacknowledged “leader.” Though Rob would probably humbly resist the designation, I feel he was pretty much the unofficial, non-designated, but generally accepted alpha dog on this hunt. When we finished at one place, and looked around with “what next” in our eyes, we usually looked at Rob. Of course, with Zim and Rene, two walking-and-eating encyclopedii of the Chicago chowscene, Rob always had excellent counsel. And we always went to places baed pretty much on consensus decision. · Include non-food options. Though we all felt that Waveland Bowl was kind of suck-o (and I’m not referring solely to the level of play displayed, particularly my own), I think we also all agreed that it was nice to break up the table action with some physical activity in the form of, for instance, bowling or standing by trackside jumping up and down while Zim shouted “Bring it home, baby!” with brio – and then, of course, tearing up our tickets and walking back to the window to place another bet. · Part-time drivers wanted. Seth, Atomicman, Joan, and I drove for portions of the 24 – but nobody drove the whole time. I think this is important. There’s a safety factor to consider, but also I think it would be a drag to be behind-the-wheel the whole time. The gods smiled on us for our trip, and the timing of the driving could not have been better – we used public transportation for the long haul (Oak Park to Chicago and back to our respective homes), but for the few miles from near north to north to west side to uptown, it was nice to have wheels, and it gave us a chance to continually survey and comment upon the changing restaurant scene, street-by-street. Driving is probably the toughest part to plan – fortunately, it kind of fell into place for us. Those are the salient guidelines – there are no doubt more. I’m particularly interested in hearing how other participants prepared themselves before – and decompressed after – the event. Mon Apr 08 12:24:28 -0700 2002 596750 0 David Hammond 4 596764 Wow, what a great and informative roadmap! I can see the wheels spinning in chowhound heads across the country... Mon Apr 08 14:36:37 -0700 2002 596760 0 Wendy Leonard 2 596758 Thanks Rene, for the full the details of the event. I wanted to add my thanks to Rob for being the driving force to get the party started right as well as thinking out a very good itinerary that didn’t leave leave 12 of the 24 hours consumed by questions of “where next, how do we get there, where do we meet so and so? A few notes and thoughts to add to the comments already posted. At Manny’s, we were able to pry loose an opinion from Joan on what she said were the sorry state of their knishes and potato pancakes. While many did not share her distaste for manny’s potato pancakes, there was general consensus for a more traditional style, flaky, ny style of knish – so hounds reading along –tips for these two deli delights? I too enjoyed the stop at Filbert’s. We arrived first and taking rene’s advice and ignored the closed side door and the no trespassing signs and wandered in. When the one guy there realized he had visitors interested in his root beer he was more than happy to give us a grand tour. One small thing I really liked was the packaging on some of the non-filbert’s soda that was in the cooler and in boxes around (root 66, husker cola etc.) straight out of the 40’s and 50’s. One interesting thing from Ramova’s (which also was a step back in time) was on take-out orders chile without beans was a little more expensive than chile with. The fry contraption Rene spoke produced some decent but not great fries. Next time, I’m going for a chile burger ($1.85) At Ed’s, we were fortunate to take advantage of Rob’s prior knowledge of a second menu with offerings besides the standard fare. One highlight of the standard menu however was the interesting translations of from sino-american to Spanish (egg foo young was translated as tortas con salsa). The soup dumplings Rene mentioned were on the menu as shanghai steamed buns, and our drunken fowl was actually duck. Alice’s may have been the one place where folks weren’t all that excited to see us. Nothing untoward, but nowhere were we more out of place. Like Rene, for me the find of the night was Freddy’s. I only wish my digestion of the rib tips had been faster so I would have been able to eat some of the offerings, besides the excellent ice cream. Besides the polenta Rene mentioned, the guy there said they also make one with porcini and truffle oil and that if you give ‘em a call they’ll whip some up for you. The seafood salad on display also looked really nice (big chunks of octopi, plump mussels) as did the mozzarella. I think I might have been able to spend quite a large chunk of a day inside this one place eating. The folks here were especially nice. They were very happy to see our interest in the food, to the point of giving Rene twice the amount of polenta he desired, for the price of half. The only thing I’ll add about Maywood Park was the fact that my horses may have been more fit for consumption on the chowathon than as participants in the “sport of kings” When our group arrived at San Soo (after a very nice time at the lakeview lounge which we would have happily extended if not for the need to get a certain tribune reporter home to her child) we found most of our ordering had been done for us. Bul go gi, dak bulgogi, seafood pa jun, mostly unadventurous stuff. We did get an order in for galbi, and bossom (which was described as bacon, raw oysters, and salted cabbage). Unfortunately I couldn’t remember the casserole dish that Erik had recommended strongly there. All the barbecue stuff was good (though I like kang nam a little more), but I thought San soo’s pa jun actually much nicer than kang nam’s. The bossum was a little underwhelming, but the oysters in the very salty dried fish dipping sauce were I thought really, really good. Also this wasn’t a make do barbecue at 3:00 am, the offerings and service were as good as you might get at regular hours. As far as Markelos, I will say the place smelled great. I can’t remember anyone actually really liking any of the goods they got, but it was a fun place to look around and inhale. The taco break referred to was at Arturo’s, where Seth and I each had a lomo and Ben got an avocado taco and we added another apostrophe s to our list. After Edna’s, whose biscuits and interesting syrup for’em were great (and Ben’s order of brains and eggs were pretty good to – even to Seth who up till this point had not been convinced on sesos as good eating) we headed to argyle. While waiting for the other car to appear Seth and I got our caffeine jolt and greeted the day with coffee from ba le. This is the sort of coffee I would love to have on every corner. On to Shan, which turned out to be a much better restaurant than grocery store. I had pretty much given up on ordering brain masala in Chicago, but recently inspired by a post on our bord had experienced a wave of nostalgia for one of my grandfather’s favorite dishes. It was great. Filled with chunks of fresh raw ginger, appropriate heat, little whole peppercorns. I was excited to take some home for my dad. From this dish you can see why the texture, creaminess, and ability to soak up taste of brains really makes it good eating(Seth, this may be the dish that converts you) After poking our heads into vinh phat, sea world and picking up a veggie banh mi for my wife, I departed the group (not knowing they were heading off for shots and roast beef). I had my own ending to the day with chili pakora and pani puri at sukhadia on devon. Mon Apr 08 11:59:18 -0700 2002 596746 0 zim 3 598873 Zim wrote: --snip-- "One interesting thing from Ramova’s (which also was a step back in time) was on take-out orders chile without beans was a little more expensive than chile with. " --snip— Beef costs more than beans........... Enjoy, Gary Tue Jun 04 06:46:20 -0700 2002 596758 0 G Wiv 4 598885 Gary, Regarding Ramova's 10 cents more for chili without beans, you write that this is because "Beef costs more than beans." I've heard this very reasonable argument advanced, but it assumes that there's a one-to-one replacement of beef for bean, and I"m not sure that's the case. There's only one route to uncovering the elusive answer to this perpetual conundrum: ask the surly cook at Ramova. If you live, please post your findings. David Tue Jun 04 10:37:36 -0700 2002 598873 0 David Hammmond 5 598890 It's not that the meat and beans replace each other; the beans are a cheap filler that extends the chili, filling the bowl more cheaply. I have personal experience with this, take my word for it. My ex-husband always insisted on beanless chili, and I needed to make twice as much because of this. If he found the container of tonight's chili in the refrigerator, he would eat it all before I got home from work, and there was no supper for anyone else. Tue Jun 04 11:46:26 -0700 2002 598885 0 ironmom 5 598909 David H wrote --snip— "but it assumes that there's a one-to-one replacement of beef for bean, and I'm not sure that's the case." Actually, it does not assume a one-to-one replacement of beef for bean, simply a one to one replacement of chili, which contains beef, for beans. Therefor the cost would be less, but in parity to the percentage of beef in the chili that the beans were replacing. Ramova, obviously, pegs the differential at 10 cents. "There's only one route to uncovering the elusive answer to this perpetual conundrum: ask the surly cook at Ramova. If you live, please post your findings." If by 'surly cook' you mean ask the 30ish fellow manning the grill/French fry pot, not a chance. I would end up wearing a pancake, burger or worse. If you mean the 60ish fellow who seems to own the place, well then maybe. I would ask him in the morning when he seems to be somewhat interactive, but not in the afternoon when he is a bit, ummmmm, 'less interactive'. (Smile) Enjoy, Gary Tue Jun 04 18:43:04 -0700 2002 598885 0 G Wiv 6 598912 Hey Gary, Okay, I'll continue splitting hairs (just hope they don't end up in my chili). You write, "Actually, it does not assume a one-to-one replacement of beef for bean, simply a one to one replacement of chili, which contains beef." So chili, by definition, contains beef? How about vegtarian chili? I think the "chili" in chili is the tomato-based medium. All that said, you're probably right: beef is more expensive than beans, so when you add beef instead of beans, the chili costs more. It's probably that simple. However, if you want to risk your health by "inquiring" of Ramova's personnel, it'd be interesting (at least to me!) to know for sure. Tue Jun 04 19:02:12 -0700 2002 598909 0 David Hammmond 7 598913 David H wrote: "So chili, by definition, contains beef? How about vegtarian chili? I think the "chili" in chili is the tomato-based medium." --snip— Dave, We are talking about Ramova's chili, which contains beef. I am not setting one toe, much less foot, on the slippery slope of the 'definition of chili' Last time I participated in a thread of that nature a bunch of ten-gallon hat wearing Texans invaded the newsgroup. We hid the women and children, but the sheep were a mite nervous for months. Enjoy, Gary Tue Jun 04 19:40:16 -0700 2002 598912 0 G Wiv 2 596763 wow. what an amazing adventure, i wish i could have participated! you guys hit a ton of places i've been wanting to try, especially filbert's, johnnie's, and freddy's. too bad about waveland. i usually prefer marigold, but i've noticed that the diversey river bowl, not too far from waveland, has an interesting snack bar. it's the only bowling alley i've ever seen that makes tempura. i'm curious about why you guys chose arturo's for your late night taco fix. i live a couple blocks from it, but usually go to lazo's, which is next door. at 4am on the weekends it's usually quite lively: bands plays to a packed dance floor and the spacious room has most of the tables full. plus i just prefer laso's burritos to arturo's. actually, in my neighbourhood i think el cid does the best job (and has better margaritas), but they aren't 24 hours. also, did you guys consider river kwai, the thai restaurant open till 4am? it might be a nice addition to the roster if there is a next time. Mon Apr 08 13:59:10 -0700 2002 596746 0 j3s 3 596777 as for the arturo's v. lazo's, actually it was closer to 5:30 when we arrived and both places were nearly empty The actual motivating factor was to settle the arturo's/lazo's debate. we went in to arturo's first and ordered a lomo (their best taco IMO) then went in to lazo's and found out they didn't do lomo. well the lomo at arturo's was already fired so and we didn't need two more tacos each at that point and had to meet up with the other car,so the debate remains unresolved. as for river kwai, believe me there are many many places that were worthy for the itinerary but just couldn't be fit in. However i am unfamiliar with that particular one, what do you recommend there? Tue Apr 09 08:53:56 -0700 2002 596763 0 zim 4 596787 On a side note: I went to Lazo's for the first time the night after the chowathon (actually at about 4am, and, yes, it was quite lively). IMO, the mere fact that they don't have the Lomo taco could well establish Arturos as the victor, at least on an absolute scale: best taco vs. best taco. Unless Lazo's can pony up something better via some pork, beef, chicken, tongue, or innard variation, then it's decided. I tried the al pastor and two others I can't recall but had already lost most of my powers of taste and judgement by that time, so I can make no strong claims either way. I will say, however, that I was a little irritated with the place and don't recall being overwhelmed by any of the tacos (I can recall the lack of such a reaction, but this may well be, once again, due to the nefarious influence of the grape). Of course, if there's any plan to have a taco-athon or taqueria crawl, I'd be most happy to partake. Tue Apr 09 15:20:11 -0700 2002 596777 0 el taco 4 596789 On a side note: I went to Lazo's for the first time the night after the chowathon (actually at about 4am, and, yes, it was quite lively). IMO, the mere fact that they don't have the Lomo taco could well establish Arturos as the victor, at least on an absolute scale: best taco vs. best taco. Unless Lazo's can pony up something better via some pork, beef, chicken, tongue, or innard variation, then it's decided. I tried the al pastor and two others I can't recall but had already lost most of my powers of taste and judgement by that time, so I can make no strong claims either way. I will say, however, that I was a little irritated with the place and don't recall being overwhelmed by any of the tacos (I can recall the lack of such a reaction, but this may well be, once again, due to the nefarious influence of the grape). Of course, if there's any plan to have a taco-athon or taqueria crawl, I'd be most happy to partake. Tue Apr 09 15:27:33 -0700 2002 596777 0 el taco 5 596837 As we used to say in the neighborhood, "Need a copy, call Lazo's". For your controlled substances, you go to Arturo's.... Wed Apr 10 16:00:32 -0700 2002 596789 0 annieb 4 596905 river kwai is a thai restaurant open till 4am, and services a lot of cabbies. if you know what you want you should call ahead. as for recommendations, i would ask the guy that runs it. they seem to have two menus: one set of dishes that can be prepared in ten minutes, and another that will take two hours. the noodle dishes tend to take longer, so unless you want to sit around drinking green tea for a while, you should ask about the specials of the day. Fri Apr 12 16:42:27 -0700 2002 596777 0 j3s 2 596766 Ironhounds, I salute you! Thanks for the vicarious trip--awesome post, really enjoyed your adventure! Mon Apr 08 15:24:01 -0700 2002 596746 0 berkleybabe 2 599002 I know I am very late here, but if raising money for the chowhound site is still a goal, how about producing a custom map with the chowathon sites on it? I would pay American Dollars for that item. Thu Jun 06 01:58:24 -0700 2002 596746 0 victor lieberman 3 599006 You know funny you should ask. If you read the other boards, you will have noticed that the LA team recently completed a similiar venture to our chowathon, called "roving chowfest", I believe. One of the things they did smarter than us, was create souvenirs at each stop for purchase/donation. I have talked with some people about doing something from the Chicago Chowathon. Believe me, the question is one of amount of work vs. demand. I guess this post helps lean the equation a lot closer to the demand. Hopefully in the near future, a fully packed souvenir keepsake of the Chowathon will be available for purchase (with all proceeds benefiting chowhhound.com). As always, the chowathon was organized independently of Chowhound Inc. There is no affiliation between any of the participants of the chowathon and Chowhound Inc. Thu Jun 06 09:12:12 -0700 2002 599002 0 Vital Information 1 596748 Greetings! Well, I was only able to participate in a portion of the gluttony, but I had a splendid time nonetheless. My friend Anne and I enjoyed stalking the rest of the crew, arriving late as we did at Johnnie's, overlapping in time at the Matchbox but remaining unintegrated into the group (enjoying the delicious brandy-soaked cherries and washing them down, over and over, almost sidetracked us for good), and then, finally, meeting everyone at the Lakeview Lounge. Korean BBQ was heavenly, with strange and deep and fiery flavors fighting for pride of place over the course of the long meal. Indeed, it was probably best that we missed the soju and beer, but it would have been the only way to improve on the meal. This only made me pine for further eating at the cabbie joints;however, we could not hold out. I'll make no excuses, rather I'll promise full participation the next time around. Regardless, I had a great time and really enjoyed meeting everyone. Hopefully, perhaps as a series of warm-up events, we can arrange some smaller-scale chows before the next full-blown adventure. Cheers all, Jim Mon Apr 08 05:39:07 -0700 2002 596735 0 el taco 1 596767 Yeah, but what else did you guys eat this weekend? :) Congrats on the fun you had, your willpower and your iron stomachs. I am in awe. Mon Apr 08 17:56:14 -0700 2002 596735 0 Harry V. 1 596768 Additional facts, figures and oddities from Chowathon 2002: Best Dressed Hound – DaveH’s tailored clothes and black fedora upgraded every setting we visited. Bad Timing – It turns out that Ben’s 16-year-old sister is a racing savant. We tried to call her for tips, but she was unreachable at Del Mar. High Score Bowling – Patrick was at or near 140. Bad reasons for choosing a horse – 1) convoluted connection to lucky numbers on fortune cookie; 2) reference to ethnicity (and not a complimentary one at that; 3) driver winks at you after the race. How chowhounds differ from other people – Virtually everyone else at the track watched from behind the comfort of a glass wall or on televisions. Chowhounds watched every race at the rail to fully *experience* the event. Sure sign we were on the sout’ side – A barber in Bridgeport, flicking through channels, went right past the Cubs’ opening day to a golf tournament. And Atomicman’s solidarity move with his fellow sout’s siders – He never once turned his back away from the Cubs game that was on the TV at Jimmy’s. Two reasons why we were so hungry through out the afternoon – 1) no chocolate ice cubes offered anymore at the Manny’s counter; 2) No takers for the candy fruit slices incessantly offered by VI. Why bother translating – Every dish on the English menu on the wall at Shan (which does include everything also written in Urdu) contains at least one misspelling—thanks for noticing Zim. Best Excuse – Erik M skipped the Chowathon to take his girlfriend to the hospital for an emergency appendectomy. Most Expensive – Korean BBQ ($18 per person) Cheapest – Bottle of Pop at Filberts (50 cents) How Chowhounds differ from other people (Part II) – ReneG pronounced an opinion on the seltzer water at Waveland Bowl. Leads from previous posts on chowhound.com – Freddy’s, Ramova, Markelos Most Caffeine – Chai at Shan—one boiling Styrofoam did more to wake us up than the multiple cups of java served at Edna’s Air Hockey Champ – Zim Best Comeback – Seth Z who originated the idea of Chicago hounds meeting, returned to the fold, drove, and help encourage Zim and Ben to not pass on taco’s. Now start posting again. Coincidence or not? – At various points during the Chowathon, we passed VI’s bungalow, VI’s old Uptown condo and VI’s older Logan Sq. apartment. Most Superfluous Food – Donut from Markelos bakery Strangest Choice of Dress – Patrick wore shorts even though it snowed at various times during the Chowathon. Perhaps we should have skipped the track – Going for the big payout, we each chipped in a buck towards a trifecta bet. After placing the wager, the teller asked, rather bluntly, “Are you sure?” Why Chowhound differ from other people (The End) – They eat brains twice in one morning I am sure I will think of more stuff. Rob Mon Apr 08 18:33:53 -0700 2002 596735 0 Vital Information 2 596773 More facts, figures and oddities from Chowathon 2002: Number of times beef was a part of our meal: 9 (Manny’s, Milanese, Ramova Grill, Ed’s Potsticker House, Johnnie’s, San Soo Gap San, Edna’s, ShaN, Berghoff) Number of times fish (excluding bivalves and crustacean) were part of our meal: 1 (Manny’s: both Atomicman and I had smelts -- which were not that great; Atomicman left most of his) Youngest pup on trip: Ben, at a tender 19. Oldest dog on trip: Me (exact age is really not that important, is it? Let’s put it this way: my oldest daughter is same age as Ben) Two hounds that broke from the table to take client phone calls: Rob and Atomicman Mystery person who called during racetrack adventure but never showed up: Cindy Lucky dogs who actually got to hear the Nsync concert, live via telephone link: Rob, Zim, Ben, Patrick Two hounds who refuse to give full legal names to media: Joan and Atomicman Name of Patrick’s big winner pony at Maywood (payout over $120 on a $5 bet): Pat’s Cam Hound who got his picture taken with a random woman exposing her breasts Mardi Gras style in a quickie photo booth at Waveland Bowl: Seth Most bumper stickers on vehicle: Joan (2) Darkest hour: right after dawn, as we sat in Waveland Bowl, waiting for Edna’s to open. CD that both Rob and Zim independently brought to the party: Exile on Main Street Number of Nsync CDs brought to the party: 0 Most popular "feeder school" for Chicago Chowhound scene: University of Chicago (Ben, el taco, Anne, Rene, Seth, Zim and me) Number of sauces at Goose Island Shrimp: unresolved -- I say 2, mild and hot, and Rob says 3, including cocktail sauce which allegedly is “under the counter and never offered directly to customers.” Most disappointing moment for Rob, el taco, Anne, Zim, Ben and Seth: when Joan, Patrick, Rene and me meet them at Lakeview Lounge bearing only two shrimps from Goose Island rather than the hoped-for two pounds (we had wanted to bring them more…but we were really very hungry). Mon Apr 08 19:39:13 -0700 2002 596768 0 David Hammond 3 596776 A few more for now: First food debate - Whether it was cruel and inhumane to eat a hot soup with live minnows rushing into cold tofu. Last food debate - Whether no ketchup on hot dogs was simply a matter of taste/regionalism or an objective truth Number of times we had to remover our shoes - Twice, Korean BBQ and Waveland Bowl Mon Apr 08 22:39:11 -0700 2002 596773 0 Vital Information 4 596778 As you might expect, on a 24-hour chow hunt, the main topic of discussion was… food. As Rob correctly documents, our final debate was at the Berghoff. The topic: “Whether no catsup on hot dogs was simply a matter of taste/regionalism or an objective truth.” On this matter, Rob and Rene seemed to believe that catsup is, objectively considered, a fundamentally incorrect choice for a hot dog, an empirically demonstrable food pas, an indefensible condiment on any hot dog, and on the Chicago hot dog in particular (sorry if I misstate the precise positions here, but the extravagantly erroneous foundation of Rob’s reasoning is challenging to reflect with any degree of accuracy). This debate, I believe, began when Rob mentioned that he was disappointed that one of his marvelous daughters continued to put catsup on her dog. Patrick and I took the position of “chacun (or 'chacune,' in the case of Rob’s daughter) a son gout” – every one is entitled to his or her own taste in condiments or any other food, or thing, for that matter. I, for instance, will eat pancakes only if they are lightly spread with mustard (Lear’s Fool seemed to like his pancakes this way, so I tried it, and I did too). I have never found anyone who shares this taste – but that doesn’t make it objectively wrong, incorrect, or evidence of bad taste. Does it? My sense is that catsup, a uniquely American invention, is shunned for that reason alone: food snobs (specifically the French) tend to put it in the same category with fast food culture and all the evils that the US has brought to the world (and, in all fairness, we should cop to a few). Therefore, to some, catsup is never acceptable, anywhere, at any time. Now, though this may seem a trivial point, it touches on a deeper issue – an issue with epistemological if not metaphysical implications. Is there such a thing as objectively supportable “taste”? Can you say that such and such a flavor is bad, objectively considered, and that another flaovr is good and therefore preferable. And in any case, should such monocular food fascism be foisted upon innocent children -- those members of society least likely to be influenced by uppity and unfair food prejudices of French origin? Obviously, mud does not taste as good as pizza. Or, for some people, does it? And if it does, is there any way to empirically demonstrate (health issues aside) that this mud-loving person is “wrong” in his or her taste? Tue Apr 09 10:54:28 -0700 2002 596776 0 David Hammond 5 596780 We can go about this two ways: First, we can collect demographic data on ketchup on hot dogs. I, for one, lived in the Chicago area until I was 8, then moved to Massachusetts. The whole family, undoubtedly led by my father, who grew up in New Jersey, put ketchup on our hot dogs. I never had mustard on a hot dog willingly until I was in my twenties, and prefer real hot dogs with ketchup, other sausages with more character to have brown or dijon mustard. We can debate tastes. Again, there are several ways to go about it. We can marvel at the diversity of preferences. I know that I went through a phase lasting about five years, where I ate melted cheese on my pancakes in the morning. We can have a flame war about the validity of different tastes. I know that, years ago, someone wrote a story for the Boston Globe about a gourmet ketchup tasting they had held. Just for a laugh, they included Heinz. It won, hands down. It is the standard against which any other ketchup is judged. Compared to it, the others were not really ketchup. Tue Apr 09 11:34:49 -0700 2002 596778 0 ironmom 6 596783 Melted cheese on pancakes!? Mon Dieu, what a marvelous concept! My long-held belief is that the pancake is an insufficiently exploited food medium, and that there’s really a lot that can be laid on the semi-sweet griddlecake platform. Cheese sounds good, but perhaps a spicier foodstuff would also work. I’m thinking maybe chili – and with that kind of “topping,” the pancake might need to be mixed with a little cornmeal. The important point would be, of course, to keep the pan-cake a cake – i.e., on the sweeter side, soft, squishy, and absorbent in a way a tortilla (even the thicker Guatemalan version) is not. When you’re dealing with the spectrum of items that can be laid into a simple starch carrier, the possibilities are immense (re: pasta, the Mashed Potato Club, etc.) – though perhaps not all good. Which brings me back to the catsup controversy, which is, in my opinion, just a way to address a more abstract concept: the relative validity of Taste, and how (or if) you can legitimately argue one taste against another. Tue Apr 09 12:34:25 -0700 2002 596780 0 David Hammond 7 596802 Kant wrote at some length on the subject. He was much smarter than I am. He didn't really seem to get anywhere, and I was unsatisfied. I read a lot of other smart peoples' thoughts on the subject, too. And unfortunately, kind of ended up back at Kant. Tue Apr 09 18:38:22 -0700 2002 596783 0 Aaron D 8 596828 Walk over to Classics and get ahold of Ted Cohen. He'll set you straight on the "subject." Oh, the latke v. hammentaschen debate, as well. ;) Regards, Erik M. Wed Apr 10 01:42:44 -0700 2002 596802 0 Erik M. 5 596784 >>Rob and Rene seemed to believe that catsup is, objectively considered, a fundamentally incorrect choice for a hot dog, an empirically demonstrable food pas, an indefensible condiment on any hot dog, and on the Chicago hot dog in particular....<< Ketchup is a sweet-and-sour tomato sauce, more or less. I see nothing in that that inherently contradicts the flavor of a hot dog. However, I would say that ketchup certainly does contradict the flavor of mustard - even the nasty yellow French's stuff. And since a Chicago hot dog requires mustard, I hold the middle position that a Chicago hot dog cannot have ketchup - not because of a conflict with the sausage - which, we must admit, is rather bland an thus amenable to almost any flavor accent - but because of a conflict with mustard. Also, since another standard Chicago hot dog condiment, pickle relish, is also sweet-and-sour, ketchup would also seem to be somewhat redundant with that condiment as well. Tue Apr 09 13:29:20 -0700 2002 596778 0 Harry V. 6 596786 Harry, Let me get this straight. You say catsup contradicts mustard. The flavors are incompatible. So McDonald's, which has probably done more research on consumer tastes than any foodservice company in human history, is wrong when they put catsup and mustard, together, on their basic hamburger? I'm not making any assertion about the quality of McDonald's food -- I am saying that Billions and Billions of people seem not to share your belief that catsup and mustard are antithetical flavors. Tue Apr 09 15:01:22 -0700 2002 596784 0 David Hammond 7 596793 MacDonalds does not put ketchup and mustard on it's burgers everywhere. It is a regional thing. In some parts of the country it's just ketchup, others both, and others they also put mayo. Tue Apr 09 16:40:14 -0700 2002 596786 0 The Rogue 8 596800 Rogue, Authority has some place in this discussion, and I speak as the author of the original McDonald's ingredients booklet (it was produced in 1985, in response to concerns raised by the Center for Science and the Public Interest). McDonald's bases its reputation on consistency, so although I no longer claim to know everything about this company, it would not seem likely that they vary their basic hamburger regionally. They may, but on their website (and I include the link below) they list catsup and mustard and pickles as the only condiments (aside from salt and pepper) that are placed on the hamburger. Mayo? Are you sure? Where is this standard practice? Link: http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/usa/food/ingredient_list/sandwiches/sandwiches.html Tue Apr 09 18:21:31 -0700 2002 596793 0 David Hammond 9 596805 Not sure if you meant to direct this, in part, to me. But let me state for the record that I defer, not only to you, but to every other person in the world, in any matter relating to food served by McDonald's. Tue Apr 09 19:09:31 -0700 2002 596800 0 Harry V. 9 596811 I am no expert on MacDonalds since they rank low on my list of food products, but I occasionally eat them on cross country road trips since the are so widely available and easy to find when in a hurry. I have learned that they are definately made differently in various parts of the country. I am talking about the regular cheeseburger here, not any other product, since I never order anything but cheeseburgers and fries (I hate everything else they make, and settle for the known quantity of the cheeseburger.) Here in Westchester, NY they do not use mustard, ever. The condiments are ketchup, rehydrated onions (blah), and (yuch) pickles. Down south and in the midwest it varies. I can't remember where I had the ones with mayo but it freaked me out since I hate mayo, or special sauce, etc on my Macslime cheeseburgers. As for consistentcy... doesn't MacD's change ingredients to match tastes in different parts of the world? Such as MacLamb burgers, veggie burgers, different types of beef... so why would it be strange that they use different condiments on the burgers in different regions. Tue Apr 09 19:55:59 -0700 2002 596800 0 The Rogue 7 596795 Yes, I do not think mustard and ketchup complement each other. Pace McDonald's, I call them like I see them. I would assume that McDonald's general culinary strategy is to distract the attention of its customers away from the quality of its beef to the greatest possible extent. Of course, I must admit that I don't think yellow mustard has any gastronomic utility, other than perhaps helping the chopped onions adhere to a Chicago hot dog. Nor am I much of a fan of ketchup, either; although I understand it can sometimes be an acceptable ingredient for other piquant sauces. Tue Apr 09 17:29:30 -0700 2002 596786 0 Harry V. 8 596801 Hey Harry, Now I'm confused. Does the flavor of catsup interfere with the flavor of mustard, or vice-versa? And who says the mustard should have precendence over the catsup? Personally, I think they both have a place on a hot dog or a burger, and have yet to hear a reasonable argument to the contrary. Of course, if you don't like the taste of one or both, then by all means, go with the chutney, chow-chow, pearl onions in pesto or whatever. Chacun, etc. When I was a kid, my dad had the brilliant culinary insight to concoct a mixture of mustard and catsup -- he called it Mustup. I liked it when I was younger, and I'm thinking I may whip up a batch for my kids tonight. Tue Apr 09 18:30:51 -0700 2002 596795 0 David Hammond 9 596804 >>When I was a kid, my dad had the brilliant culinary insight to concoct a mixture of mustard and catsup....<< I have always suspected that that brick-colored goop in which New Yorkers stew onions and then place upon hot dogs was a half-and-half mixture of mustard and ketchup. To each his own, indeed. As to my own taste, if applying a condiment to a sausage sandwich, if the sausage is mild my preferences lies towards a genuine prepared mustard of any stripe, and/or sauerkraut. A more highly spiced sausage, if properly cooked (not dried out over a grill, in other words), needs no condiment (although the bread might need dressing if it has been allowed to become dry). Tue Apr 09 18:54:52 -0700 2002 596801 0 Harry V. 7 596810 I love Heinz's ketchup and Nathan's mustard pooled side by side for my Nathan's fries. First you dip in the mustard then the ketchup and eat. The perfect marriage of flavors. MacDonalds ketchup stinks, it's watery and too sweet and flavorless, so MacDonalds fries get the hot mustard sauce or just salt. Tue Apr 09 19:43:07 -0700 2002 596786 0 The Rogue 6 596791 so does the pickle relish go with the mustard, is this part of the Chicago standard? if so, that would seem to be another conflict of the sort ketchup and mustard partake in: mustard + sweet/sour = bad. my taste aside (can't stand ketchup, certainly not on the sacred french fry, but feel utterly compelled to mix it with mustard, at least a bit of it, on both burgers and dogs; my taste buds apparently were trained, as David points out, at McD's) it seems that the best defense of your position would be on the basis of tradition: it's just not done this way in Chicago, period (at least, not after the age of, what, 14?). this would bypass the question of taste and a possible standard for its truthfulness or rightness by means of a perfectly justifiable and bull-headed adherence to an almost mythical norm. Tue Apr 09 15:51:56 -0700 2002 596784 0 el taco 7 596792 El Taco, Your Solomonic wisdom seems likely to bring this controversy to a peaceful conclusion. Catsup's place on a hot dog is, as you suggest, not a question of "true taste" except in the sense that the "traditional and expected taste" of a Chicago hot dog excludes catsup. That doesn't mean catsup tastes "bad," or "doesn't work" with the mustard, relish or wiener -- it just means that catsup isn't usually a part of the Chicago hot dog. Simple as that. So, Rob, it would seem feasible to allow your daughter put catsup on her hot dog if you wants to: just make sure she knows not to call it a Chicago Hot Dog. Tue Apr 09 16:39:44 -0700 2002 596791 0 David Hammond 7 596794 The yellow mustard conflicts with the mutated tomato flavor of the ketchup, not precisely with the sweet/sour aspect. Sorry for not being clearer. I would never argue simply for tradition. Tradition is an excellent guideline, but never an absolute law for me when it comes to food. Tue Apr 09 17:21:55 -0700 2002 596791 0 Harry V. 6 596824 Hey Harry, Just wanted to make sure you caught The Rogue's comment, "I love Heinz's ketchup and Nathan's mustard pooled side by side for my Nathan's fries. First you dip in the mustard then the ketchup and eat. The perfect marriage of flavors." You said, "I would say that ketchup certainly does contradict the flavor of mustard - even the nasty yellow French's stuff." I say, again, to each his own. Tue Apr 09 23:44:29 -0700 2002 596784 0 David Hammond 5 596785 Having lived my whole life in Chicago and having a family that sold hot dogs from Maxwell Street to Red Hot Ranch to Wolfys and being a friend of the original Fluky you just don't put ketchup on hot dogs unless your a small fry ie Rob's youngest and have not learned to eat mustard which seems to be an aquired taste. My kids did not eat mustard until they were older and one still prefers ketchup on hot dogs. Maybe some day she'll learn what the true taste is. Tue Apr 09 14:16:07 -0700 2002 596778 0 Paulette 6 596788 Regarding Rob's daughter, you write, "Maybe some day she'll learn what the true taste is." You know, Paulette, I get nervous when people start talking about "true" anything. And when it comes to taste (or religion or art), I have to wonder if the word "truth" can be legitimately applied in any sense. "Truth" may be applicable to those areas, but I'm pretty sure I've never met anyone who has a lock on it. And that's the truth. Tue Apr 09 15:22:01 -0700 2002 596785 0 David Hammond 7 596796 i do believe paulette hit the nail on the proverbial head. statistics show it's only the little ones; the small frys, so to speak, who choose ketchup on their hot dogs. and we all know that the kinder have yet to develop their 'true' tastebuds. they have yet to make that culinary leap to adulthood. therefore, this scientifically proves that ketchup is not a legitimate or acceptable condiment for the aforementioned dogs, but only a waystation on the bumpy road to life (adulthood). nirvana only arrives with the desire for mustard (either yellow or brown) on one's hot dog. (of course, slicing your hot dogs and slurping them up in a steaming hot bowl of campbells tomato soup is acceptable at any age). Tue Apr 09 17:33:08 -0700 2002 596788 0 joan 8 596798 Sorry, I can't resist; my experience dovetails with what Joan describes..I finally have to weigh in..I was one of those chowpups who put ketchup on hot dogs...It was not til several years past puberty that my taste-buds graduated to mustard...Of course, several years later, I gave up meat, but mustard has remained!!! BTW, just another kudo for the awesomeness of the Chicago-hounds endeavor! Tue Apr 09 18:03:48 -0700 2002 596796 0 galleygirl 9 596808 My mother always served me hot dogs with ketchup as a kid (even the thought makes me gag as an adult) but on the day she bought me my first street vendor hot dog I asked about the yellow stuff, the white stringy stuff, and the red chunky stuff... and the hot dog man put all three on my dog... Since then I like my dogs with mustard and onions or if no onions I'll take 'kraut. By the way I never had a Chicago Dog just NYC style... I feel like I may be missing something here... :-( As long as they have no ketchup. Ketchup is only for burgers and fries. (with mayo for frites) Tue Apr 09 19:38:06 -0700 2002 596798 0 The Rogue 10 596815 And EGGS...Duh!!! Tue Apr 09 20:48:27 -0700 2002 596808 0 galleygirl 11 596816 Probably the smell I hate most in the world is ketchup on eggs... that sickly sweet gross odor turns my stomach faster than anything else... I'm practically gagging thinking about it. It should be a criminal offense for people to eat ketchup and eggs in public... or private for that matter if I get exposed to it. Tue Apr 09 21:11:30 -0700 2002 596815 0 The Rogue 12 596817 i think it's time for several chowhounds to grab that valium and lie down! Tue Apr 09 21:13:40 -0700 2002 596816 0 joan 13 596818 Right now I'm looking for any excuse to escape from working on this paper I've been playing with since 6am. Please send over that valium. Tue Apr 09 21:19:37 -0700 2002 596817 0 The Rogue 12 596819 Okay, I probably should have put a smiley face after the "duh" :)....But really, how can you eat eggs without ketchup? Tue Apr 09 22:04:43 -0700 2002 596816 0 galleygirl 13 596820 GiGi- You love to get the last word even more than I do! I meant it that for me personally there is no grosser food combination than eggs 'n ketchup... eeew... ugh...yuch... etc! Tue Apr 09 22:16:35 -0700 2002 596819 0 The Rogue 14 596821 I mentioned this raging controversy to my wife, and she looked at me like I was crazy and said she hated catsup -- except on eggs. Go figure. If I've learned anything from today's rapid-fire discussion, it's that there's no accounting for taste -- at least in catsup (or ketchup, if you prefer, Atomicman). Or acquiring a taste for Kant. Tue Apr 09 22:32:33 -0700 2002 596820 0 David Hammond 13 596827 How can you eat eggs WITH ketchup? This is rhetorical, no need to answer. But I'm in the eew! camp, and I think ketchup is one thing that will always divide otherwise like-minded hounds. Everyone has his or her own ketchup dos or don'ts, and seems to feel quite strongly about them, as amply demonstrated here. Tue Apr 09 23:59:05 -0700 2002 596819 0 Caitlin McGrath 14 596838 From my standpoint there are rules about ketchup with eggs that are every bit as stringent as those governing the rules about ketchup with hot dogs. Ketchup is only to be used on greasy-spoon eggs that are served sunny-side up. The ketchup helps cushion the landing. :^) Wed Apr 10 16:17:20 -0700 2002 596827 0 pogophiles 11 596822 But only with hash! Tue Apr 09 22:39:52 -0700 2002 596815 0 ironmom 8 596799 Joan, So, adults have "true" taste and kids have "false" taste? I can't imagine a less defensible position. Also, by this absurd postulate, adults would not like the taste of catsup on anything, and many do. Every diner or truckstop worthy of the name has both a mustard and a catsup bottle on the table -- there's a reason for that, and it's not that kids spend a lot of time in diners and truck stops. Me, I prefer mustard, but I can't stand by silently while a perfectly decent condiment is berated and denigrated. All I'm saying is, give catsup a chance. Tue Apr 09 18:14:05 -0700 2002 596796 0 David Hammond 9 596807 I read something somewhere (don't you love how precise I am?) that children's taste buds can't pick up certain flavors until a certain age and that's why they like certain things as kids and then a broader range as adults. Supposedly sour and bitter flavors are overwhelming or something. Does anyone know any details on this? Tue Apr 09 19:33:10 -0700 2002 596799 0 The Rogue 10 596825 All I know is I loved green olives when I was a kid. I don't know about precise receptivity to sour flavors etc. but clearly kids prefer sugar, hence the enormous popularity of McDonald's-- think about McD's food versus the same thing even at a fellow fast food joint like Wendy's and it's soooo much sweeter. A Wendy's cheeseburger (not to mention a good one anywhere) tastes of mustard, onion and salt; a McDonald's one tastes of ketchup and those virtually-onion-flavor-free reconstituted onions. (And my kid won't even eat the onions on his. But he's 3, he has time to become a chowhound.) Tue Apr 09 23:46:21 -0700 2002 596807 0 Mike G 10 596830 Well, nothing to back this up, but I thought I heard that childrens' palates are actually much more sensitive than adults', who have had more taste buds die off. So children, with more taste buds, taste everything more strongly, and thus are overwhelmed by sour or bitter foods because, well, they taste more sour and bitter. This is why many children dislike broccoli, which has a slightly bitter taste to us, but is incredibly bitter to a child (and how this accounts for kids who like broocoli, I dunno, unless it's just that some people have an innate like for bitter food, and some don't.) But that could just be a random bit of info my brain thought was neat and decided to hold onto without concern for its veracity... Wed Apr 10 10:57:07 -0700 2002 596807 0 Chris VR 11 596832 I did some research in my college texts and online and children do have more sensitive taste buds. They start to become less sensitive due to cigarettes, alcohol, etc. OR more sensitive due to training such as wine experts or chowhounds. Most importantly they become trained due to learned reflex. We learn to like such tastes as caviar, hot sauce, etc. by being exposed to these tastes. There may even be evidence that fat is a learned taste. So tastebuds do not die off as we get older. 25% of all folks are "super tasters" with many (up to ten times the amount) more taste buds and more sensitive ones (these folks can taste compounds that other folks cannot), 50% are normal tasters, and 25% are "poor" tasters with much less taste receptivity. (I bet chowhounds are mostly composed of "supertasters") I just read that new research from Purdue University says that there are now six types of tastes that you can sense, not five, or the four we were taught as kids. The Traditional: Sweet, Sour, Salty, and Bitter The Japanese discovery from around 1900 that became mildly accepted in the past 20 years: Umami- The taste of Amino Acids / Glutamates (savory, meaty tastes... found in soy sauce, mono-sodium glutamate..) The latest from Purdue Univesity: Fat- yes fat... the creamy mouthfeel of fatty foods triggers a taste / mental response. Wed Apr 10 11:54:00 -0700 2002 596830 0 The Rogue 12 596839 I cannot believe I am getting involved ANYWHERE in this digression, but I have to chime in on this: It is my understanding that supertasters are less likely to be chowhounds. That in fact too many taste buds are a bad thing as you tend to pick up all the nasty components of food that the rest of us ignore. I may be wrong on this, but I do not think so. I really do remember reading that being a supertaster was not as good as it sounds. Driving it all back to the catsup/hot dog thing. My primary problem with ketchup on hot dogs is that it just looks so darn awful. We experience food with all our senses not just taste, and the aesthetic of catsup on hot dogs just kills it for me. Maybe, VI Rob Wed Apr 10 16:18:57 -0700 2002 596832 0 Vital Information 13 596844 If the "look" of red catsup on red wiener is offensive, then the solution is obvious: go with some of the new party-colored "ketchup" now on the market. Heinz has a totally stunning and tasty new product called EZ Squirt Mystery Color: you actually don't know if it's Passion Pink, Awesome Orange or Totally Teal until you squeeze the bottle! What Fun! And what possible complaint could you have with that? I include the link below, as I'm sure you're going to want to get a lot. Link: http://www.heinz.com/jsp/promotion.jsp Wed Apr 10 17:56:38 -0700 2002 596839 0 David Hammond 13 596852 You Know... You may be right about supertasters... and digressions are the most fun. Wed Apr 10 22:07:07 -0700 2002 596839 0 The Rogue 5 596809 The same people who sneer at catsup on hot dogs can generally be found with a big puddle of it on the plate next to the hot dog for dipping the fries. Now, if you take a bite of dog, then dip a fry and place in the mouth and chew all at the same time, is this somehow different? As Mom used to say, it all ends up in the same place. By the way, I would never be caught dead actually putting the catsup on the dog, and the one time I thought about this while eating, I just got a big headache (although that could have been a hangover). Tue Apr 09 19:40:55 -0700 2002 596778 0 scott 1 596779 I feel as though I've fully recovered from the chow now. I was only there for ten hours or so, and missed the most intense eating portions of the event, but still managed to get some deliciousness, and no end of chow-camaraderie. Next time, i'll get off work and manage a little more excess. I would say that the most striking feature of the event was the degree to which everyone remained good-natured throughout, despite creeping exhaustion. It's nice to know that even after 17 hours of continuous movement and eating, the chowhounds can be counted on to keep a friendly discussion on what's good to eat/read/see/hear/do going without any tempers flaring. I guess that's the result of a common mission; even so, there are people I am on more intimate terms with than the hounds with whom I would be reluctant to stay up all night. Many thanks to Rob for planning the event. Zim -- next time I'm in uptown, i'll be sure to check out the brain masala, now that that organ has been stricken from my no-eat list. See you all the next time around. I'll scan in my mardi gras style photo for the delectation of hounds everywhere as soon as i find myself near a scanner. The chow-highlights for me were the biscuits at Edna's-- sort like popeye's biscuits prepared one at a time with care, and with that brownish syrup, the name of which escapes me; coffee at Bale in the bracing morning air; the oysters at korean barbecue. Thanks again. It was great to see everyone. Tue Apr 09 11:05:14 -0700 2002 596735 0 Seth Zurer 1 596812 I want no part of the ketchup discussions below. Although I have always been curious about the variations in the spelling of the word and what the various usages imply about the users. No matter; back to the Chowathon. I have now had some time to reflect on the excursion and a few thoughts come to mind. Many of the details of the event have been stated very eloquently before now, so I wont belabor them. I guess I am most impressed by the fact that a group of people who did not really know each other outside of this board, were able to make this work so smoothly. Kudos to VI for the original inspiration and the leading the endless discussion planning the event. We all had a chance to voice our preferences and we ended up with a reasonable consensus that fit into the time and space allotted. I thought we were well received by all of the establishments we went into and I remembered how much I enjoy driving in the city when the streets are empty. I would encourage anyone to listen to the little voice inside that tells you there is something better out there and explore. It doesnt have to be 24 hours, make it work for you. Thanks to all of the others who participated either in person or vicariously, and remember that one of our goals was to raise some $$ for the site. Buy something or just contribute, if you are going to buy something on Amazon, connect through the site. They will get something for that too. Viva la Chowhound Tue Apr 09 20:16:56 -0700 2002 596735 0 atomicman