11045 Wed Aug 21 10:15:03 -0700 2002 21 4 Pacific Northwest 0 15258 Irwin's recent response to the New Yorkers visiting Seattle for one evening intrigued me. Irwin suggested that Canlis was the quintessential Seattle dining experience--especially for East Coast out of towners. In some respects, he is correct. It was one of the first fine dining restaurants in the city and has sustained while others have gone. Canlis has survived the Belltown boom and targeted attacks (Stars, Cascadia, etc.) and prospered. When I have dined there the service has been excellent, atmosphere unparalled and food that was above average (but not memorable). So why don't I like this place? Canlis never comes to my mind as a recommendation. Given the chance, I would rather dine at Nells or Kaspers (for similar food). How do other Chowhounds feel about this Seattle institution? Wed Aug 21 10:15:03 -0700 2002 0 Leper 1 15264 I couldn't agree more. I would much rather spend my money at Cafe Juanita, Oceanaire--maybe becuase I think the food's better at Cafe Juanita (much better, actually) and it's an easier place to spend time, and I like Oceanaire because it's not intimidating to my friends and family. Canlis--the fact that the restaurant only hires Asian ladies as servers really bothers me--I see it as a sick way to play into 55 year old men's fantasies. Plus, when I've been there, there have been an inordinate number of older men with their 22 year old lady friends. It's affair-central. I just don't like it. Wed Aug 21 12:51:45 -0700 2002 15258 0 jennifer j. 1 15268 i'll agree with many that "CANLIS" is not the very best. i'll disagree about the "oriental woman" as i've known quite a few waitress thru the years who were not "oriental" but played dress up. but the first time i visited "seattle" my friend and associate for excess of 25 years our most famous foodie and i'm sure noone will dispute this said that if i wanted to have the opportunity to experience the "AUTHENTIC" northwest seattle experience that there were only two restaurants on the west coast that would allow me this chance. CANLIS and TRADERS he was right but no more TRADERS yeah there were dirty old men but also children who were there for birthdays annually sure you needed a jacket and they'd give you one, (not like new york where all you get is the door) plus you were always welcome to eat in the lounge in your short sleeve shirt. but whats more important these visitors were looking for a "NW" experience and this was not a matter of money or comfort or not even food but the total package. do any of us actually think that the big apple or la or san francisco don't have restaurants that are as good but not unique at home? san francisco "SAMS" or "TADICHS" have some of this chirisma but none have been as influenced the imige of the northwest then "CANLIS" especially with use of greens, seafood, lamb, sheeelfish, salmon, scallops etc plus they were again the first to wake up to the fact that our most famous crow of the northwest was in trouble due to over irrigation and other reasons and started using varieties of items that showed care like fingerling potatos due to their caring articulate chef plus were the first who expressed on the menu where the dishes originated. we've got many west coast food heros like alice waters or acme bread who have become famous even trader joes. i'll be honest and say that i haven't been to many of the places given allocades but i respect all opinions based on my 48 years of being a chef, troubleshooter and consultant businessman i'll stick with my choice. it's funny that we hear so little about the two most important FOODIES of all joe baum and albert stockoli who james beard felt were the most important foodies. Wed Aug 21 13:48:04 -0700 2002 15258 0 irwin koval 1 15277 Canlis is a great restaurant. However, it is snooty and the food is overpriced. Wed Aug 21 19:59:01 -0700 2002 15258 0 Foodguy 2 15286 "snooty?" How do you define "snooty" ? I have been to Canlis twice in the recent past, once as a party of two, and once as a party of 10. Both times we had wonderful service, excellent food, great wine (there are bargins in that list, and the "wine guy" was very eager to help us find them). The view is spectacular. Both times I felt very welcome, and I enjoied our brief conversation with owner Chris Canlis as he walked the floor. The music from the bar was appropriate, and the room was full of magic. On my last visit, one table was a 80th birthday party, at another high school kids out before a prom, and at another a couple out on a date. Three very different situations, I watched closely and everyone seemed to be having a great time. "Snooty" , didn't come into play at all. Yes, I love going to Mistral, to Rovers, and to the Herbfarm. Everything has its niche, and Canlis has its own. That being the quintesential 50's, 60's, 70's fine dining experience that has been brought to today by a great kitchen. Snooty ? I don't agree. Cheers John Thu Aug 22 11:11:25 -0700 2002 15277 0 maltbird 3 15289 My experience has been that in Seattle, anywhere you are expected to show up dressed presentably is considered snooty. I mean, people show up to the opera in jeans. There is no appreciation of formal attire. Thu Aug 22 12:58:44 -0700 2002 15286 0 Anon 4 15297 I find it's usually people who aren't native to the NW who most criticize our dress and our tastes. If you're disappointed with a culture that promotes a casual attitude toward dress and food (including wearing jeans to the opera), by all means, return to your East Coast elitism. We have a wonderful opera company. We have the finest ballet. Our theaters are incredible. So what if we wear jeans instead of a tux as a patron to the arts? The bottom line: we support the arts wholeheartedly here (examples: building of Benaroya Hall, the new opera building, the refurb of The Paramount). Who cares what we wear? We invest where it counts: in the infrastructure of maintaining an arts culture here. Now I'll step off my NW native soap box. I will add that for most of us here, Canlis is just not our style. When I think of Canlis, I think of old money and appearances. I have moderate money and my appearance is pretty damn NW casual. To me, a much more worthwhile evening is spent exploring any myriad of small, locally owned operations who so desperately need our support right now (believe me, the rich will continue to support Canlis ...it's the others who need our help now). With what's going on in our country right now, I'm reluctant to play into that whole upper-class idealism and do dress-up rich for a night. Where is my money going? To small, locally owned restaurants in need of cash. Places like the Blue Onion Bistro, HoHo and El Camino. The struggling middle-class business owners are in danger of losing everything with the economy in the shape it's in. And let's face it, the stability of this country depends on the middle class. Please spend your dining dollars wisely and where they count. Thu Aug 22 14:46:27 -0700 2002 15289 0 Becky McNabb 5 15299 I guess I care about whether people dress up for the opera. The people who perform it, or who perform in the very good local theatre and symphony, work very hard to put on high quality art and it shows disrespect to them when the audience treats it as an event as casual as Hempfest. The same goes for a decent restaurant (and I would say this is true even of places like El Camino). Customers are as much a part of the atmosphere the restaurant is trying to create as the food and the decor are. It shows a disregard for their hard work to create that little world and it shows disregard for the other patrons who are trying to look presentable, to show up looking ready for a hike or a trip to the gym. I know that our society has become a lot less formal in recent decades (a trend that does not make me particularly happy), but I do think that it is still generally accepted that the appearance one makes is a way of indicating their respect for the place and the company. Thu Aug 22 15:15:52 -0700 2002 15297 0 Anon 6 15300 Poppycock. I've actually had a conversation with Speight Jenkins on this very topic. His comments were that he was so thankful to work in a community that so generously supports the arts, regardless of how we dress. I disagree completely regarding dressing to impress an orchestra or chef. I think that our very presence -- regardless of appearance -- shows our respect for what the restaurant or performing body is trying to accomplish. Thu Aug 22 15:38:43 -0700 2002 15299 0 Becky McNabb 7 15306 Well, that's not how I was raised. Obeying the rules of etiquette is how one shows respect for the people around them. People appreciate when you make a point of going out of your way to do that. It's funny how the old rule, it's better to be overdressed than underdressed seems to be reversed lately. I work in a professional environment where it seems to be acceptable to show up for work looking like you just rolled out of bed, and yet these people expect to be taken seriously as adults? I can't remember the last time someone showed up for a job interview wearing a suit! Unfortunately, I think that the Northwest has taken the idea of being "casual" so far that even manners are not valued here. I've heard people explain that paying attention to all the rules of etiquette is too restricting, but I am convinced that it's just about laziness. It's a real shame, too, since it severely diminishes what is, in most other respects, a very livable part of the country. Thu Aug 22 19:16:02 -0700 2002 15300 0 Anon 8 15307 Like it or not, that's the culture you're now living while residing here. I suspect you are not a native to this area. Your ideals more closely align with an East Coast sensibility, judging from similar conversations I've had with other Left Coasters who have been unable to adapt to NW living. I completely disagree with you regarding manners. I find the matter of dress and personal manners to be two separate issues altogether. I think Northwesterners -- almost to a fault -- are extremely polite beings. It's almost to the point of being so politically correct, we're afraid of offending anyone. Thu Aug 22 19:54:19 -0700 2002 15306 0 Becky McNabb 9 17917 I had to laugh while reading this thread... I always dress up for the ballet and opera here in Seattle as well as other places. When my husband and I were in Paris last year, I packed an extra fancy outfit along with a pair of uncomfortable high heels for the ballet. Well, much to my amazement--there were people there in jeans and tennis shoes! And this was in Paris. So it's not only the NW casual culture. Oh, as for Canlis--I've had mixed experiences there--some great meals, some not so great, but I LOVE the lady's restroom! (Even snuck my husband in to see it!) Mon Sep 22 01:21:46 -0700 2003 15307 0 Paula 6 15304 Plenty of people dress up for the opera, ballet, and symphony. I see them in the venues and on the streets before events. But some people would just rather pick out the few people who are dressed casually so they can be saddened and disappointed (and superior). I'd like to know just how shelling out $90 for a ballet ticket might be considered disrespectful. Thu Aug 22 16:22:02 -0700 2002 15299 0 KathyR 5 15301 Well said! Thu Aug 22 15:41:14 -0700 2002 15297 0 Leper 5 15361 Oh please. Do you really expect anyone to follow your silly logic that the people who support the arts and "worthy" restaurants have no money leftover for decent clothes? Showing a little respect for yourself and the people around you by dressing decently has zilch to do with East Coast Elitism. I don't know why you have such a chip on your shoulder about Canlis. Sure, a high-quality establishment like that attracts Old Money as well as status-grasping New Money. But I, as a totally average middle class Honda-driving young person who likes to spring for dinner at Canlis once or twice a year, or just drop in for drinks every once in a while, have never felt anything but completely welcome at Canlis. The owners are warm and friendly, and they circulate the floor nightly, because they know that one of the secrets to success, besides excellent, consistent food (which they also have), is a personal connection with their guests. This IS a small, locally owned business run by good people who treat their employees extremely well (rather unusual in the restaurant biz, sadly). Why do you feel such a need to hold their success against them? Tue Aug 27 18:46:00 -0700 2002 15297 0 Jenn 2 15310 I define snooty as pretentious ("making or possessing claims"). Therefore, when one reads the Canlis menu, there is an abundance of superlatives used to try to persuade you as to the quality of the food. Let the food speak for itself. Snooty also refers to the overpriced wine list. To mark up wine over 100% is more than snooty it is an insult. They seem to charge you for the privelige of sitting in their dining room. It would be more impressive to dazzle us with the food itself, rather than market it to us and then over charge for it. Thu Aug 22 22:01:26 -0700 2002 15277 0 foodguy 1 15280 Canlis in my mind is the original old-school luxury joint for the area's elite. Mink coats, Palm Desert country clubbers returning to their Seattle homes for the summer with stories of golf parties at Groucho Marx's house on the 11th green during the Dinah Shore Classic. Kitty & Elmer Nordstrom. Aston Martin Lagonda parked in front. If the walls of Canlis could talk,,, Sure there's lots of new money and plenty of outstanding places to eat but when the Issaquah plateau was nothing and Bellevue was dairy country, only Canlis had no prices on the menu. Holds a special charm to many, and I heard Seattle Golf Club (est 1907) still has a 20+ year waiting list to get in and maintains its "closed guest" policy. Lots of old money keeping Canlis in business and you can bet they'll be around for quite some time. Wed Aug 21 22:27:44 -0700 2002 15258 0 Fritz 2 15287 This is the most right-on description of Canlis that I have ever seen! I think it serves its purpose, every city needs one. I have to disagree with an earlier post about the hiring of only asian ladies as servers. That has not been my experience, nor that of the handful of people I asked. As for affair central, I think not. Remember, this is a place to see and be seen by the elite in Seattle. Thu Aug 22 11:53:06 -0700 2002 15280 0 Lauren 3 15288 Yes, I agree with you Lauren, his is the best description. One drives in from Bellevue to go to Canlis to make a statement about: ~what car one drives in for the valet to park ~what one is wearing ~who one dines with (and,to court business colleagues and dates with the sentiment "I took you to Canlis, you should be my client OR I am agreeing to be seen with you, you rank highly with me" ~what wine one brings in to top the Canlis wine cellar (I have a friend who lives on Mercer Island who saves his best wine to take to Canlis to be uncorked with his meal...) Of course, to keep up the Canlis reputation it is important to feed this clientele decently and wait on them properly. Having a valet park the cars is key to the whole experience...(I have another friend who bought his latest expensive car imagining what it would be like to hand the valet the keys.) (Yes, I have a wide assortment of friends...). In that way, Canlis is like all eateries...create a concept, feed 'em and take care of 'em decently, make it a place your clientele wants to return to. True for McDonalds, true for the Flying Fish, true for taco trucks, true for Canlis. Thu Aug 22 12:10:17 -0700 2002 15287 0 Olympia Jane 4 17921 I've never been there in anything but my beat old Civic, and I've been treated incredibly well every time. They stopped the faux-geisha service years ago. The current servers -- men and women -- are simply the best in Seattle. They never hover, which is the most annoying thing a waiter can do. In fact, you'll never even see them -- unless you need something. Really, it's like they're psychic -- the butter is set down next to the just-scraped-clean empty one before you've even noticed they're coming. Water is filled when it's empty, not when you've gotten a half-inch in. They've got the only proper certified sommelier in Seattle, regardless of what all those other places say on their websites, and he knows his stuff. Whenever I've asked a question about a wine, I've been patiently and cheerfully informed; I've even had them run off a color copy of a page out of wine encyclopedia for me to take home, with the map of the region. The food is outstanding. I've been to as many of the nouveau yuppie dotcom restaurants as I can stand -- Cascadia, anyone -- and they don't compare. And the room is simply beautiful. The view, the towering stone chimney, the wood, the glass... it's an overlooked architectural masterpiece, by Roland Terry, 1950. Very little of that era survives in Seattle, and nothing so nice to just be in. Yes, it's old school; everyone's wearing a suit -- you HAVE to wear a suit, or a nice jacket and tie. Yes, those gents over there by the window are probably bankers or Boeing execs who didn't go to Chicago. Yes, there's money everywhere. People with money aren't stupid; it's the nicest place to go. But you'll never be made uncomfortable if you don't have any (well, you have to be able to pay the bill....) It's the only place in Seattle that has any feeling of history to it, other than some run-down old bars in Pioneer Square. But it's also very modern, in an unostentatious way that's completely alien to Belltown glitz. If you want triple-martini businessmen plowing through an overrated steak surrounded by crappy New-York-steak-house mahogany, go to the Metropolitan or Ruth's Chris. Canlis is absolutely about the food. Canlis is friggin' great, and anybody who says different has, charitably, not been there for a decade. Or is just biased by class envy that isn't even right. Tue Jan 20 23:46:23 -0800 2004 15288 0 Steve T 2 15293 Ugh. Your description makes me want to avoid it like the plague. Nothing like the potent combination of pretension and elitism to ruin an appetite, especially when it seems to so often come hand in hand with bigotry and racism. Good thing I don't golf! regards, trillium Thu Aug 22 14:09:09 -0700 2002 15280 0 trillium 1 15296 Excellent food, consistent execution, great service and the best wine list in the Northwest. What the person next to me is wearing (or not wearing for that matter), eating, drinking or talking about is none of my concern. The guests may be snooty but the service never is. Thu Aug 22 14:44:50 -0700 2002 15258 0 Chris