110127 Tue Dec 04 17:13:44 -0800 2001 23 7 Chicago Area 0 594056 Like a bleacher bum bowing to Sammy, I am in awe of Old School, Dick, Paulette and all the other's of their generation on chowhound. Oh, to have visited Fritzels and the rest. Now, I can only live through the memories of OS and his cronies. We've done a reasonably good job of saving our old buildings, but a lousy job of saving our old resturants. New York still has Gage and Tollner's and Sardi's. Boston has Durgin Park and the Union Oyster House and Locke-Ober. New Orleans, obviously, has a whole quarter's worth of old time chow. Yet Los Angeles, much more modern than Chicago, has Musso's and Phillipes, and such. What do we have to do in Chicago, import Joe's Stone Crab. Fooey! Even before chowhound, I've had a fascination with these kind of places. Craig Rice books are one way to get a bit of a fix. The other way, is through the old menu's. Dick mentioned some old menu's he has. I've been collecting menu's for a while, although it's more of a fits and spurts kind of thing. My collection, however sorely lacks in Chicago places. Still, I do have 3 Fritzels menu's, including lunch and dinner from their last day. The third Fritzel menu dates from 1958. I do have menu's from all over the world, especially resturants of a certain haute class. Lots of Simpsons-on-the-Strand, Maxim de Paris (not the chicago version), Lucas Carton, Grand Velour. I would be more than happy to trade some of these for Chicago of Las Vegas related stuff. Other things that may interest both in Chicago and out: 2 Keens Chophouse (I'd trade one); Schrafft's and Luchow and Lindy's; like a gazillion menu's from Baltimore's Miller's Brothers, "The Place to Eat". For those who believe that all roads lead to Rome, I have a Ristorante Alfredo, The Real King of Fettucine"; for cruise fans, a few from high end lines like the SS France and the QEII; for Simon and Howler, a 1947 menu from Veeraswamy's of Regent and Swallow streets, London; and for Old School, who has started this whole mess, a menu from Jim McCovey's Old South Bar-B-Q Ranch with branches in Clewiston, Hialeah, Ft. Meyers, Old Town (on the bank of the Suwanne River) and Orlando, Florida. Again, I am interested in trading. As to guidebooks, well a couple of weeks ago, Rene had responded to a post about italian backeries by looking up some entries in an old Pat Bruno book. I had been meaning to write about old guide books. It's amazing how a guidebook, a few years old, is a waste, but a few years after that becomes something worth collecting. I have a host of Chicago books including a resturant book from the 1930's. Anyone else share this hobby? Rob Tue Dec 04 17:13:44 -0800 2001 0 Vital Information 1 594075 Alas many of the old restaurants have closed as the owners died or times changed. As you noted earlier their is Homestead which is owned by the Ricketts Family which had a place on Chicago Ave near State where you went for Chicken in the Rough, ie fried chicken. You can still get it there. A recent post mentioned Trader Vics in the Palmer House and remember this from years ago. Don Roth who owned the Blackhawk son is partners in Blackhawk Lodge with the Levy Bros but it doesn't feel like the old Blackhawk. My cousins and I used to go to the Indian Room which was downstairs for spagetti. This was a real treat as we went without parents and must have been between 8 & 12. Don Roth's in Wheeling on Milwaukee Ave has a little more of the feeling. Eli's has been around for a long time. At least Piazza M has kept the chef from Como Inn when the Marchetti Family closed it a few months ago. He is about to retire soon though. A few more old places of course Millers Pub and Berghoff and the Italian Restaurants on Oakley near 22nd. I'm sure there are more just can't think of them now. Wed Dec 05 10:32:08 -0800 2001 594056 0 Paulette 1 594076 Rob, I accidently stumbled on this message board a few weeks ago and I AM IN AWE OF EVERYONE (and that means you too)! Everyone is so generous with sharing their wealth of information and experiences down to the minutist detail which makes this board a joy to read. Growing up in Bucktown, migrating to the Central/Belmont area then to Elmwood Park and now to Oak Brook, I read the various messages and fondly remember my visits to many of those mentioned. But alas, presently my work takes up so much of my time that very little is left to "explore" and enjoy the many restaurant offerings in this great city. Hopefully in the new year this will all change. I look forward to reading everyone's messages and once in a while I will attempt to contribute. My few contributions so far have been lacking in substance, but now that I am getting a feel for the level of discussions etc. hopefully they will improve. Thank you to all for making this board informative and a pleasure to read. Ani Wed Dec 05 10:34:35 -0800 2001 594056 0 Ani 1 594082 my menu collecting is mostly for sentimental reasons...places that meant a great deal to me when i was younger because i shared them with people who meant everything to me and now are gone....that's why i continue to search for a joe steins rumanian restaurant menu(sheridan road incarnation),millers steak house,the imperial house,gabriels(foster and broadway)first bite of pizza...etc...what i do have is a photocopy of the1954or5 chicago restaurant yellow pages that regularily brings me joy... Wed Dec 05 11:19:49 -0800 2001 594056 0 dick 2 594085 You keep bringing up memories. We recently had a discussion of Joe Steins as well as even older places that where on roosevelt road or madison and crawford (pulaski) or cicero area. Altmans Steakhouse and Carls. The biggest rememberance wasn't whether the steaks were good or bad but the large bottles of Old Colony Red Pop on the table. Don't remember the flavor just that it was red. Also squirt type seltzer bottles on the tables but the kids wanted the red pop. Wed Dec 05 12:05:56 -0800 2001 594082 0 Paulette 3 594086 they called it strawberry...i don't think it had ever gotten within 10 miles of a strawberry...i think they also had brown pop...cream soda. Wed Dec 05 12:15:15 -0800 2001 594085 0 dick 3 594106 Last time I was in Detroit, 2-3 years ago, Faygo was still making and selling red pop which is different than strawberry. I have never been a pop person, although on extended visits to Detroit and Michigan every summer my grandparents would indulge us, and then I wouldn't really want to drink it. Wed Dec 05 20:16:14 -0800 2001 594085 0 annieb 4 594129 I don't remember it as strawberry. It didn't seem to have a flavor of anything almost like orange crush doesn't taste like orange juice just sweet colored pop or red pop. Thu Dec 06 11:35:52 -0800 2001 594106 0 Paulette 5 594131 you are ,of course, correct...old colony was never known for truth in advertising...birelys grape of the wide mouth bottle didn't taste much like grapes except if you think mogen david tastes like grapes...if you haven't i highly reccomend reading joseph epsteins essays on growing up and eating in chicago...he is a wonderful writer who teaches at northwestern and has written a number of terrific books...last year he wrote an essay in the weekly standard which can be found in the 2000 archive of arts and letters daily(alday.com)...check it out it starts with a discouse on pop as presented by a waiter at joe steins.... Thu Dec 06 12:17:58 -0800 2001 594129 0 dick 5 594132 you are ,of course, correct...old colony was never known for truth in advertising...birelys grape of the wide mouth bottle didn't taste much like grapes except if you think mogen david tastes like grapes...if you haven't i highly reccomend reading joseph epsteins essays on growing up and eating in chicago...he is a wonderful writer who teaches at northwestern and has written a number of terrific books...last year he wrote an essay in the weekly standard which can be found in the 2000 archive of arts and letters daily(alday.com)...check it out it starts with a discouse on pop as presented by a waiter at joe steins.... Thu Dec 06 12:18:11 -0800 2001 594129 0 dick 5 594146 Right, there was strawberry and there was red pop. By the way, a colleague of mine always orders some kind of red pop at Hi Ricky, that is usually the reason we go there because she wants the red pop. Couldn't tell you what it tastes like. Thu Dec 06 21:01:35 -0800 2001 594129 0 annieb 1 594094 When my grandma died we found some beautiful old menus stuffed in photo albums. None from Chicago, which was too bad (would have been some choice Maxwell Street/Rogers Park treats!). They were rather all from a few glamourous nightclubbing years in Miami. I love the lists of old cocktails (almost all of which were on the Tiki Lounge menu in Hyde Park, r.i.p.), and the prices on lobster newberg and oysters rockerfeller. The best find was from a flying nightclub. Patrons boarded an airplane and drank cocktails and listened to a band while flying around in circles. She had one of those pictures that establishments take and then sell you, tucked into a cardboard flyer. Everyone's having an elegant good time. Wed Dec 05 15:02:28 -0800 2001 594056 0 A Okrent 1 594103 Gee, I didn't realize I had started this whole mess. Unfortunately, unlike Dick, I have none of the memories of these places in any tangible form. What I do and did have were parents, grandparents, and great aunts and uncles who took me to all these great places from a very early age, and passed on their highly opinionated views of food, restaurants, menu language, how to find a good place in an unfamiliar town, etc. To them, every single bite of every meal was important, and had to be great. God forbid you should waste a breakfast, lunch or dinner on something mediocre. Trying something new was valued, but carried risks. I remember taking my grandmother to some nouvelle-ish place and seeing the horror on her 90-year-old face when the entrees arrived in their highly art-directed fashion, fully architectural and vertical. "I can not eat this," she said to me. "All this arranged stuff on the plate can mean only one thing: someone in the kitchen has had their hands all over it." (As an aside, it was she who taught me never to pick up a magazine in a doctor's office, since everyone there is sick and their germs are all over the pages). Anyway, I believe our next dinner was at the International Club at the Drake Hotel--older, professional waiters who don't tell you their names, straight-ahead food, no adjectives or other whimsy on the menu, and total ordering flexibility. That was another thing--never order what they're serving exactly as they serve it. If you want a bagel, order it toasted AND scooped, or double-cut and then toasted. Or two tops only, no bottoms--don't worry, I'll pay for two. Put the sauce on the side. Never ask for the steak just medium rare, but "red medium rare and charred up on the outside." Not just the whitefish, but whitefish tail--and, by the way, could you make sure they broil it dry? Egg whites. Can you do it without the scallops but add extra shrimp and cook it in olive oil? There were places that would rock and roll with these punches and others that wouldn't, so you go to where it was never a problem. I think the theory was that yours would be fresh if you insisted on entree customization. I always hoped this "difficult" ordering behavior was at least somewhat mitigated by the big tips--de rigeur in our house. Any of this sound familiar? Wed Dec 05 19:20:35 -0800 2001 594056 0 Old School 2 594107 I didn't grow up in the same place as grandparents, etc., and so some of it doesn't, although the underlying philosophy does. My grandfather was forced into retirement early (about 1960) and promptly took over all the marketing and most of the cooking. He had grown up on a farm and had, shall we say, an intimate knowledge of meat and vegetables. (My grandmother, not a bad straight-ahead cook in her own right, promptly went back to work, saying if he was going to do all the shopping and most of the cooking, he could do all the dishes and she could occupy herself elsewhere). They lived in a town right outside Detroit that had a year-round farmers market (still does). I can remember asking him at a very early age what we needed at the farmers market (I was probably tired, since we had already been to Hollywood for dry and canned goods, Holiday for meat, Brown's Dairy for milk, Hermann's Bakery for bread and Hagelstein's for dunkers (a Detroit specialty that is like a crescent-shaped donut but used as the name implies). He gave me a list, tomatoes, onions, carrots, whatever. We stopped at a vendor. He purchased carrots, or whatever. I said, Papa, you said we needed tomatoes, or whatever. Or I tried to say it, because he poked me in the ribs, we paid, moved on, and he said, I get my tomatoes from somebody else. I think he also liked talking to the farm wives, flirting a little, and acting knowledgeable, although he couldn't wait to get off the farm himself. He always bought tomatoes in large quantities, wasn't afraid of a bruise here and there, you took them home, examined them, washed them, sorted them, and cut out spots and ate the rest of the bruised ones over the sink. Then, and when he was shaving, was the only time I ever saw him take off his button-up shirt and in just an undershirt. He also fried a chicken every Saturday morning (I am now proud owner of the cast iron skillet he used, which had belonged to his mother-in-law) just for anybody who stopped by. And made his own sauerkraut, and at one time beer and bathtub gin. (Grandma made the pickles and chili relish). And if adults were going out and kids left behind, we ate take-out, not McDonald's, but fish and chips from the old Suzy-Q on Woodward Ave. He questioned every merchant about their product, where it came from, when it arrived. The dialogue that my mother carried on with fishmongers and the last italians to grow fresh vegetables in the NY suburb she found herself (and us) in in the late 60's (every sentence started with What have you robbers got today, and ended with her getting bruised tomatoes for a song, fish collars for free, whatever, is a method that still works for me. Yes, as I first observed my mother do, and now do myself, they will bring the fish out from behind the fish counter and let you smell it (I once offered to put on one of their little caps and spend $10 on smoked salmon if the skate didn't please me) if you stick to your guns. There's no reason not to, however many magazine articles tell you how to "pick" fresh fish. On these oddyseys for the stuff of daily living, he always asked questions: What do you want? How does it taste? Do you need anything else? Did you like it? This post is already way too long, I meant to get to finding good restaurants in unfamiliar places and ordering, will save it for another day. I need to get that skillet out and cook some supper. Thanks for the inspiration. The memories were fun. Wed Dec 05 20:52:01 -0800 2001 594103 0 annieb 3 594109 Annie, the topic of finding new chow has been oft-discussed on the General Foods Board. You should take a look and contribute. I have put a link to the last such discussion. Lots of divertions on that thread, including maybe one or two by me. Mr. Chowhound, Jim Leff, has commented that he never gets tired of "how to chowhound" posts, so aim away Also, you will find, on the General Foods board, a series of threads related to chowmoms, this seems right up your alley. You can get to the General Board from the main chowhound.com page or via Hot Posts (also found at the main page). Rob Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/287843#1550766 Wed Dec 05 22:44:11 -0800 2001 594107 0 Vital Information 2 594108 Old School wrote, "I think the theory was that yours would be fresh if you insisted on entree customization...I always hoped this "difficult" ordering behavior was at least somewhat mitigated by the big tips--de rigeur in our house...Any of this sound familiar?" Ever see the movie, Get Shorty? rg Wed Dec 05 22:34:30 -0800 2001 594103 0 Vital Information 2 594126 i've always believed that in a lab on the shore of the sea of galilee there is a lab devoted to breeding a two tailed whitefish...what happens to all the abandoned fronts?..everything you say rings a bell..the international club is great and has ,i think,its own dedicated paramedic squad..jim and judes it's not...in my family we also had the "there's a draft from the air conditioner"issue. Thu Dec 06 10:34:36 -0800 2001 594103 0 dick 3 594128 I forgot about the air conditioning complaint. A great one. This relates to the similar stunt of always rejecting the first table they bring you to (even if it's a good one) just to let them know from the start, as my father instructed, that you're not some patsy to be trifled with. Oy. On the subject of tipping, I'm also reminded of my grandfather's great line to his barber on each of his weekly visits to the old shop at the Drake. He'd offer him an extra dollar in the tip if the barber promised not to talk to him during the haircut. Thu Dec 06 11:17:47 -0800 2001 594126 0 Old School 1 594130 I just started a local food paper in Chicago, Local Palate and we have a column "Acquisitive Cook". I'm interested in anyone who has an interesting food related collection. We have featured flour sifters and martini shakers so far. Please contact me. Thu Dec 06 11:56:11 -0800 2001 594056 0 christina Hansen 1 594152 I don’t have many old menus but I do try to pick up old guidebooks when I have a chance. I enjoy reading about the long-gone restaurants and some I just barely remember. I too wish I could have gone to Fritzel’s. As sad as it is to have lost all these old places, I don’t think I’d trade then for now. I think the Chicago dining scene has improved quite a bit in the time I’ve been eating here. There’s this older guy I drink beer with every now and then. He’s truly amazing and remembers almost every detail about Chicago in the last 50 or 60 years. More about bars than restaurants though. The bars are important too. So many of the great ones are long gone. I have a copy of Dennis McCarthy’s, The Great Chicago Bar & Saloon Guide from 1978. It’s a fine book; he really has a talent for recreating the entire ambience of a place in a paragraph or two. This is a separate topic but how about Bar RR, Bucket of Suds, The Eagle? Maybe I’ll try to make a list of the ones that ARE still around and should be visited. That way maybe we won’t have to complain about them going out of business. Last year, at Gallery 37, I took a formal 6 week course on Chicago food history. I don’t know if it will be offered again next year but I can try to find out if anyone is interested. Then there are the Culinary Historians of Chicago who meet monthly at the Chicago Historical Society. Some very interesting talks and tastings, though many aren’t specifically Chicago related. I don’t go to many because they meet Saturday morning. Their website isn’t the greatest but I’ve included a link below. Just a few miscellaneous comments about some books: That Pat Bruno book, Chicago’s Food Favorites (1986) is still somewhat useful and very interesting. Chapters are: Ribs, Subs, Hot Dogs, Deep Dish Pizza, Thin Crust Pizza, Stuffed Pizza, Chicken, Chili, Bakeries, Breakfast, Ice Cream, Cannoli, Italian Beef, Steak, Caesar Salad, Corned Beef, Hamburgers, Soul Food, Tacos. I just picked up a mint copy of Jory Graham’s, Chicago: An Extraordinary Guide (1967) which truly is an extraordinary guide. The restaurant section is quite strong and extremely interesting. One of the oldest books I have with an actual section devoted to Chicago ethnic restaurants is Lait & Mortimer’s, Chicago Confidential (1950). Some of it is shockingly racist. Of the 50 or so restaurants they list, only one remains: The Berghoff. I’m very curious about that 1930s Chicago restaurant book; I’m not at all aware of it. The book that I’ve been looking for is The Good (But Cheap) Chicago Restaurant Book by Jill Rohde, published sometime in the 1970s. If anyone knows where I can find a copy (or even if someone has a copy I could borrow for a few days) I’d be very grateful. There’s something I’ve been wanting to look up in there for years that I can’t even remember enough about to ask an intelligible question. Link: http://www.culinaryhistorians.com/ Fri Dec 07 03:47:26 -0800 2001 594056 0 Rene G 2 594162 Jory Graham's guide to Chicago led me to many wonderful places and eats when I moved to Chicago. It's pretty amazing in that so many things she recommended over 30 years ago still are great things to do here. It remains on an honored place on our bookshelf. As for Fritzel's, I can only say that if you tried it in it's later years as I did, you would not regret its demise. Fri Dec 07 10:57:33 -0800 2001 594152 0 Joe Penkrot 3 594192 Please explain Fritzel's. Didn't grow up here, didn't grow up in a family that "ate out", just noticed on my way to work the other day (duh) "Oh, there's Biasetti's". When I reached drinking age, my first love (brazilian-german, the boy across the street) used to take me to two different places "upstate", Franzel's and Hansl's. Located in the town where all the large cemeteries were (just like brooklyn and queens used to be the "outer boroughs). Good beer, good food, good entertainment, just you try to play a saw. Is Fritzel's something else entirely that I've just missed, like not having a TV in the house until 1965? Fri Dec 07 22:10:06 -0800 2001 594162 0 annieb 4 595016 My dad used to take me to Fritel's when I was a Kid in the 50's It was the best place in town for a steak and to feel really ritzy Tue Jan 22 17:16:03 -0800 2002 594192 0 Ed Lerman 1 594484 Rob, I have a similar affliction. For me, its business cards. Any kind of card, but preferably from a place that I've been. [I do have friends that know about my disease, and will cart back stacks for me, from their travels.] I'll limit my remarks to Chicago restaurants, and specifically those establishments that have closed. These are treasure. This list includes, Urbus Orbis, Eldo Cake & Bakery (Chinese bakery on Cermak), Rhumba, The Original Wishbone, Tribal Grill, Okno, Spruce, Mantuano Mediterranean Table, Starfish, The Nile Restaurant, Grappa, Grapes, Pattaya, Sun/Moon, Fog City Diner, India House, Sunset, Feast, Intimate China, Woo Lae Oak, Confusion, Rudi's, and The Dellwood Pickle. I store my cards in a binder. They are entered chronologically. Its fun to look back and trace my history in the city. I have alot of other cards from Chicago restaurants that I predict will achieve a similar "classic" status, soon. Its just a matter of time. Cheers, Erik M. [God. It must be apparent that I'm bored, today.] Sat Dec 22 20:33:10 -0800 2001 594056 0 Erik M.