110032 Tue Nov 06 12:12:55 -0800 2001 18 7 Chicago Area 0 593464 I made a resolution upon reading Zim's confessions about Pizza that I would spend this winter combing the city's pizza parlors for a thin crustpizza worth his time and affection. I've combed the boards, and other sources, and will be posting periodically on new places that I try. I hesitate to bring this up, knowing how inflammatory anti-chicago pizza language can be, but I should note for the record that I'll be holding the pizzas I try to non-chicago standards...which is to say, I understand the inclination of VI and others (perfectly clear-headed in many other respects) to take Chicago thin crust pizza as its own legit style, but I can't judge pizza by that rubric, much as I might like to. I'll be looking for the sort of pizza that made me love pizza (and that I hope will convert Zim): thin crust, lightly cheesed, greasy, burnt blackened spots on the bottom, foldable, crisp-edged but pliant, non-crackery crusted. To that end, I tried Pizza DOC last week: very authentic Roman style pizza. Not really what I was looking for, but pretty tasty nonetheless. I tried as someone vehemently recommended, the arugula pie -- a very thin, floury crackeresque crust, baked with cheese and oil etc, then topped with raw arugula and sliced cherry tomatoes. The arugula wilted slightly on contact with the crust. It was tasty, well seasoned and savory, very light. But not really what I had in mind for Zim. I agree with the previous Pizza DOC posters about the price: a little over the top. My date and I also ate some figs and prosciutto, which was served (unnecessarily) on a rosemary foccaccia and a blob of mascarpone. Pretty nice. I had gnochetti with a cheesy cream sauce (mascarpone, and blue cheese) which were nice if a little lacking in structural integrity: approaching a potato flour porridge rather that individual nubbins of dough. My date had a grilled tuna steak, which came drastically overcooked at first, then better on the second attempt, with nice skillet fried potatoes and overcooked haricots verts. The tuna wasn't great, not fantastic quality fish, and the sauce of olives, sundried tomatoes and thyme didn't really meld at all. So, Pizza DOC gets a thumbs up for Roman Style pizza, but a thumbs down for converting Zim. They also provided hot and cold service, sometimes very attentive at other moments inexplicably clueless (the wine service was non-existent). So, more to come, I hope more successful visits. Tue Nov 06 12:12:55 -0800 2001 0 Seth Zurer 1 593465 Seth, I resisted (for about 2 minutes) on whether I should respond to your quest. On one hand, just the idea of checking out various pizza places is a good thing, and I await your reports regardless of your orientation. On the other hand... On the other hand, your whole proposition is still this, not what is good pizza, but what is good pizza from an east coast perspective. Let me put it this way. What if I lived in New York, and I wrote the New York board all the time about the lack of good hot dogs in New York. Would I say that Papaya King's bun is not steamed and Nathan's does not serve hot sport peppers, and that the few places that serve Vienna hots dogs fry them instead of boil them, therefore New York hot dogs were no good? To me, if given the choice between a Gene and Juder and a Katz's grilled dog, I'd pick the Vienna. That is not to say, that I do not also enjoy a grilled skinny dog dressed with spicier mustard and kraut. Hell, on the Dallas board someone compared me to Ignatious Reilly, and he did not even now that I like an occasional Lucky Dog with its odd combination of mustard/chili. Good Luck! rob Tue Nov 06 12:49:20 -0800 2001 593464 0 Vital Information 2 593469 [my apologies in advance for a long and poorly reasoned post -- i'm a little inarticualte today.] You've posted an even handed and openminded message about broadening my perspectives and I appreciate it. Your hot dog comments have made me consider. In fact, I think that your insistence that the chicago style is worth my while is a large part of what has informed my decision to go out and try them all first hand. My tastes are narrow now because I haven't a pizza here that I can love. And I should note, my tastes are even narrower than just an east coast perspective, VI: it's my perspective! Pizza that _I_ like is good! Solipsistic, egotistical, intolerant perhaps. But I feel like the Chicago pizza as I have known it is founded on poor culinary judgment. Now, I would be delighted to find the thin crust pizza that proves changes my mind this winter, and when i do, i'll skulk back tail between my legs and proudly announce to the world that Chicago can make a pizza that pleases me. But until I find that pie, the state of the pizza here doesn't encourage me to give the benefit of the doubt. In the same vein, i think the smoked brisket from texas is overall better than the brisket elsewhere, i think the mozzarella di bufala in Italy is better than the mozzarella on supermarket shelves in Chicago, I think that crabs in DC and Baltimore are almost always better than crabs anywhere else, the neapolitans make a better espresso than anyone else in the world. Some places do have the upper hand on others, even though lots of people like to eat the food in places that don't specialize. It doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate beloved regional styles of brisket or coffee or mozzarella; it just means that I will insist on distinguishing between the things I like and the things I don't. I can grant you the regional hot dog distinction, because I like and appreciate both kinds of dogs. But as of yet, I have no reason to appreciate the chicago style of thin crust pie. And I hope that the results of this quest are a new-found appreciation for a chicago style of pizza. But I have to confess that the mere existence of a local style doesn't compel me in and of itself to sing hosannas to that food. There are good and bad choices even in the world of regional variation. Tue Nov 06 13:29:37 -0800 2001 593465 0 Seth Zurer 1 593466 You're doing important work, Seth. But why should you shoulder the burden? This should be a project all our Chicago members (and those from the coasts who fly into and through Chicago) share. One of us is in crisis. It's time to come together. In fact, if I see another one of those surrealistically low airfares, maybe I'll stop by and do some searching as well. ciao Tue Nov 06 12:54:38 -0800 2001 593464 0 Jim Leff 1 593467 Midwesterners who are pizza skeptics should note the completely unsolicited thread below, from the DC board. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/164922#881189 Tue Nov 06 12:56:06 -0800 2001 593464 0 MU 1 593468 Seth, a noble quest if i say so myself(g). I'll be one step behind you and when you find THE PIE, would be happy to join you for a celebratory piece. By the way, VI and others are welcome to report their conversion quality pizza joints that serve chicago style thin crust. I'm not on the southwest side very often but I am definitely going to hit Vito and Nick's based on Rene's posting. thanks to seth and all Tue Nov 06 13:19:54 -0800 2001 593464 0 zim 2 593474 I'm still confused - I'm happy to try new pizza places :) but not sure if we're trying to convince Zim that pizza, any pizza, is good, or that Chicago thin style can be good and he should go to XXX to get some? And I'll throw my plugs in for Pompeii and Pizza Capri! pompeii is what I'd call Sicilian - a thick almost bready crust, pizza capri more of an italian-esque thin crust - not what I think of as Chicago style. But I may not be a good judge, because I like almost all pizza (I'm not fond of Domino's or of thick deep dish cheeeeesy Chicago style, but it will do in a pinch) Tue Nov 06 16:34:48 -0800 2001 593468 0 lee 3 593475 My only criteria is that i will like it, whether that be chicago thin style, east coastish thin style, sicilian, whatever I think what seth is saying is he's looking for the pizza that he thinks would most likely convert me which to his mind would be east coast style. Haven't had pompeii but have previously sampled pizza capri. Tue Nov 06 16:38:22 -0800 2001 593474 0 zim 4 593486 OK, and you didn't like Pizza Capri? Did you think it was in general poor food, or that you didn't like that style of pizza (thin crust, italian style) Wed Nov 07 11:27:41 -0800 2001 593475 0 lee 5 593487 I don't have a stongly held preference re style of pizza, and I wouldn't go so far as "poor" but not something i'd seek out again. Actually I used to work down in Hyde Park and Pizza Capri would turn up fairly often at staff mettings/get togethers so it wasn't a one-shot deal. I was just looking for something that would make start looking forward to the next pie once i had finished the one i was working on. Wed Nov 07 13:23:29 -0800 2001 593486 0 zim 6 593493 I have to say that Pizza Capri doesn't really fit the bill for me: I've had their thin and thick crust on multiple occasions and have never been all that impressed. In re: a thread above, Salerno's, Tonelli's and Oggi's are on my list now. I tried Metro Pizza (Pizza Metro)last night, the newish place where Cafe Scruffy used to be at division and Paulina. (aside: I miss Cafe Scruffy: i used to go in for black and white pudding once a month or so when I lived closer by.) The pizza there is a variation on the kind of foccacia cum pizza you can get in many quick and dirty pizzerias in Italy: 3 foot wide squares of extra thin dough are baked with tomato sauce and oil once, and then again with cheese and the toppings of your choice upon ordering. The individual slices are little rectangles which the servers (all italian speakers when I went, sporting Lazio soccer banners in the back) cut into six little squares right before serving. The verdict: eh...i like the gesture towards the thin crust, and the fact that the slice was hot and fresh: it wasn't over cheesed or over sauced, the tomato sauce was nice enough. But it still doesn't qualify--the crust was about half a centimeter too thin, with any of the nice moistness on top under the cheese, or any of the variability in texture through out. And the whole pie is square! No exciting bubbles around a slightly puffed up uncheesed section of outer crust, no sense of forward moral progression as you work your way from the tip to the tail of a wedge. Fine for a snack, but doesn't leave me hungering for more. Wed Nov 07 15:09:28 -0800 2001 593487 0 Seth Zurer 7 593495 I’m following your quest with great interest. Never heard of Metro, I’ll have to give it a try. I’m curious if you’ve tried Bacci. I don’t think it qualifies as great pizza but I think the crust might tend in the direction you’re looking for. There’s one at 2356 W Chicago and another at 2248 W Taylor. They sell slices. Wed Nov 07 16:21:16 -0800 2001 593493 0 Rene G 8 593498 I haven't tried it yet, but it's on my list since I pass by it every time I take the chicago bus home from work. I'm especially interested to see that they have panzerotti, something you don't see everyday in your run of the mill chicago slice joints. Wed Nov 07 17:26:08 -0800 2001 593495 0 Seth Zurer 9 593499 Seth, I'd rate the pizza as only fair. We do get panzerotti for take-out, though. Our favourite is sausage, spinach, garlic, and ricotta. [Subbing the ricotta for the mozz.] Its an easy, cheap meal for two. Cheers, Erik M. Wed Nov 07 17:45:59 -0800 2001 593498 0 Erik M. 10 593509 Erik, I'd have to agree: Bacci's pizza is only fair. While they are certainly wedges and not terribly overcheesed, the crust is a little too thick and heavy and lacks the all important textural differentiation between bottom middle and top (crispy, chewy, moist respectively). And they neglected to reheat the slice when I ordered it, so it was a lukewarm congealed slab. I tried reheating it when I got home, but that didn't have terribly salutary effects. I will go back to try the panzerotti or the fried (!) calzone, but for pizza, this place is not going to change anyone's mind about pizza. Thu Nov 08 11:03:07 -0800 2001 593499 0 Seth Zurer 2 593500 Good grief, I leave this board for a week or so and all hell breaks loose. Sorry, I've been busy. I see from an earlier post your request to find THE place or THE pie. I am sorry to disappoint you on several counts. First, I have not been residing in the Chicago area for eight years, so I cannot vouch for pizza conditions at any particular pizzaria. I have seen positive postings on Nick & Vito's or Vito & Nick's or whatever, and I have been there and it was good, but that was 20 years ago. Also saw a posting on Salerno's, formerly of Berwyn; again, good stuff there when I lived in Berwyn, but not living there for past eight years, and have not tried the new place in Chicago. Used to be some good places in Cicero too (Al's) where (similar to descriptions in VI's posting) you could eavesdrop on goodfellas or goodfella wannabes. Friends have updated me. Palermo's in Oak Lawn said to still have good pizza, but friends will not patronize anymore because proprietor is obnoxious ass. Also in southwest suburbs is Fox's Pizza, but same friends claim that proprietor died, Fox's closed for a week or two, and upon reopening friends got pizza there and got food poisoning. They speculate that kids/relatives of proprietor let sausage etc. sit around during funeral, but this is probably BS, and take cum grano salis: Same friends took me to worst Bar-b-q rib place ever in my life (Snaker Jake's, in Blue Island or near there--sorry Andy & Sharon if you read this, but it WAS the worst.) I saw mention of Little Joe's on someone else's (Frank T's?) post. Brought back fond memories. Great place 20 or 30 or 35 years ago--but you take your life in your hands nowadays in that neighborhood, 63rd around Francisco--and the same could be said of Onesti's, take out only, on 71st near California. All of the above places originally served only thin crust, sweet sauced pizza, standard with sausage, maybe mushrooms, some with little, some with lotta cheese. I would kill for one of those right now. Like the poster from Ft. Lauderdale, can't get anything like that where I live (central Wisconsin). Finally, I guess I won't be able to steer you anywhere simply because, perhaps, I've become an old fart and set in my ways. From the postings I've read, it seems pretty clear that Chicago pizza has evolved--for the worse, in my view--so that many people like strange additions on it--I can't imagine Italian beef on a pizza, and even shrimp on a pie or ham and pineapple is anthema to me. I don't know whom to pity more--me for my loss of old and original Chicago pizza, or you who have perhaps never had it. Wed Nov 07 21:38:01 -0800 2001 593468 0 Bruce 3 593502 Bruce, Its good to hear from you again. I understand where you are coming from. I'm a staunch defender of the Chicago pie. Unfortunately, as it concerns zim, most of my faves are on the (way) South Side. [I'm talking Fox's and its surroundings.] Erik M. Wed Nov 07 22:20:03 -0800 2001 593500 0 Erik M. 3 593503 Bruce---- the old Little Joe's on 63rd is long gone --- BUT,they opened up way out on the southwest side (around 147th & Lagrange Rd ??)Quite a few of those places from 59th, 63rd, and 67th (Dunn's) wound up setting up shop in the SW burbs.I've been gone from the Windy City since 1967 bit my first stop on my two or three visits a year is for OLD-FASHIONED, THIN-CRUST, CHICAGO PIZZA.I'am elated to know there are other people around who share this "old-timers" view of the "REAL McCOY" (can you imagine confusing a beef sandwich with a pizza?) Thu Nov 08 00:37:15 -0800 2001 593500 0 FrankT 4 593518 I get to Chicago also about 3 times per year, but I've generally been missing the good pizza places. I often have stayed in the western suburbs, and have had some truly horrible pizza. It's good to know that there are still some old places around that have relocated, and I'll have to make a point of visiting them. Will have to get more info on locations later. Little Joe's: Ha, that brings back memories. When I was about 14 years old, my friends and I would pool our resources, call up Little Joe's and order a small cheese pizza and 4 six-packs of Schlitz (SCHLITZ!) for delivery. When the delivery man arrived, we'd have one of the girls answer the door and call upstairs, "Dad, the pizza guy is here." One of us would then respond from the bathroom, with the shower running heavily, "OK, the money's on the table." This ruse actually worked once or twice, but later on they began to refuse to hand over the beer. Thu Nov 08 13:50:10 -0800 2001 593503 0 Bruce