107204 Tue Apr 08 13:11:56 -0700 2003 27 57 Western Canada 0 580107 Hullo, Chowhounds, I'm writing an article on the dearth of street food in Vancouver, and would greatly appreciate any tips, advice or suggestions. Tue Apr 08 13:11:56 -0700 2003 0 Dorothy Woodend 1 580109 What - the Mr. Tubesteak guys aren't doing it for you? Cafe Crepe has pretty good take-out windows. Otherwise, sadly, you're right - there's nothing like the crepe carts in Paris or the street vendors in China. Tue Apr 08 14:18:37 -0700 2003 580107 0 viola da gamba 2 580110 Hi Viola, oh dear. that's what I was afraid of, the only things I can think of are the various street events, (PNE, Word on the Street, or Hats off Parade in Burnaby) where street food suddenly pops up like mushrooms. Tue Apr 08 16:48:21 -0700 2003 580109 0 Dorothy Woodend 3 580112 I think that's about the size of it - but if I'm wrong someone PLEASE SAY (and give directions)!!! There's lots of street food at events (like the various neighbourhood 'events' - the East Indian one is fabulous), there's the East Van farmer's market, and after that it's pretty well the tubesteak guys, some chestnut/pistachio roasters & I think I saw someone selling candyfloss the other day. Tue Apr 08 18:06:37 -0700 2003 580110 0 viola da gamba 4 580163 There you go... Well if you think about it: Vancouver is still a relatively young city with a low concentration of people for a "metropolis". If you can get the people to congregate near any events, the carts will show themselves. The supply is meeting demands at the moment I think. It is especially true since Café Crêpes is planning a domination tactict rivaled only by StarBucks (talked to one of the owners the other day) with 3 locations right now and 3 more in the next 12-24 months. It shouldn't need many carts if a lot of restaurents do takeout-type windows (like that Chinese restaurent whose name escapes me at 4 in the morning). Mon Apr 14 07:23:17 -0700 2003 580112 0 Luke 1 580113 Well if you are writing an article about the dearth of streetfood it is going to be a short one. It pretty well boils down to the hoops that need to be jumped through by city hall and the health department in order to get permission to have a street stand. Many cities like that nice clean sidewalk look and the street vendors are way to nonconformist for the taste of the powers that be. Montreal under Jean Drapeau is a classic example. He never liked the look of food carts on the sidewalks and simply legislated them away. So instead of an interesting outdoor food culture like New York (I'm trying to use a similar example, don't get me started on Mexico,Thailand etc.) we get clean boring decent hotdogs. You gotta know that with the ethnic diversity in this city combined with the high cost of EVERYTHING a profusion of street food should be a slam dunk! Tue Apr 08 19:22:09 -0700 2003 580107 0 eatrustic 2 580117 That's what I was afraid of, the idea was started by Anissa Helou's new cookbook about Mediterranean Street food, wherein she basically makes the argument that there's no better way to experience a country's culture than by dining on its street food. But if you don't have any, what then? No fun Vancouver. Wed Apr 09 12:03:35 -0700 2003 580113 0 Dorothy Woodend 1 580118 I take a different view of this issue. I believe that the city is protecting the restaurant industry and the jobs it creates. Imagine the cost of leasing a room on Robson, the investment in equptment and fixtures, the hiring of staff, the taxes and god knows what else. After making this investment somebody with maybe $15,000.00 spent sets up on the sidewalk in front of your place and steals your customers. Weeks later some one starts a post on Chowhound saying Where have the small restaurants gone? Wed Apr 09 12:04:56 -0700 2003 580107 0 Coop 2 580129 Sorry but that answer is a copout. There is a place for a very diverse food culture in any big city. A sitdown restaurant with it's comfort and service does not compete with someone grabbing a bite standing up. Otherwise a place like New York with the incredible competition and costs of running a sitdown restaurant should have banned street stands years ago. Thu Apr 10 05:36:17 -0700 2003 580118 0 eatrustic 3 580132 Not all Restaurants are sit down places. Using Robson as an example, there are at least 20 places where you can grab a slice of pizza, or some sushi etc to go. These places pay rent, employ people and contribute thier share in licensing and taxes. I just think that you compromise thier ability to survive by letting someone sell street food in front of thier business. By the way comparing a city in Canada with a city in the USA business wise is just unfair. Our country is larger with 10% the inhabitants. any business has to fight 10 times harder to survive. Sure street vendors and restaurants can survive in a citry with 20 million inhabitants. Thu Apr 10 11:42:51 -0700 2003 580129 0 Coop 4 580134 So then, food vendors are a bunch of low-lifes who jeopardize the livelihood of hard-working, "real" businesses, and who don't contribute to the economy? Quel horreur! As a consumer, I want plenty of choices. I'm appalled that Toronto street vendors can offer little more than hot dogs, due to the archaic food-safety bylaws of the city. (Or, perhaps the city actually takes a stance similar to yours, and is using the food-safety argument as an excuse?) I'd be delighted if street food culture could flourish here, as in Asian cities; it could add so much to the character of any city. I like street food if I don't want to spend much, if I'm in a rush, or if I want to sit outside during nice weather. That doesn't mean I'll stop going to restaurants at other meals, and it also doesn't mean everyone else will think like me. As a Feenie-basher and a West-cheerleader, you seem to be into the "celebrity chef" scene; I can understand your defence of so-called real restaurants because you obviously have high respect for their craft and dedication. But geez, this economy is based on competition, and if a restaurant has to be fearful of some street vendor, maybe they don't have the stomach for the business. Personally, I think it's the godawful franchises like Taco Bell, Red Lobster, McDonald's et al. - not street vendors - that threaten the existence of independent restaurants. By the way, I don't quite understand your argument about Canadian restaurants having to fight ten times harder than American restaurants. A large city is going to have many, many more restaurants than a smaller city. Perhaps you could compare per-capita stats on restaurants in different cities. Thu Apr 10 13:45:43 -0700 2003 580132 0 Anne Bradford 5 580141 Anne: I am really enjoying this debate. I find that I agree with your point that it would be nice to have a more vibrant street food business in Vancouver. That being said I am not sure that I'm ready to make the sacrafices to make that happen. I have already made my point on the business end of the argument so I won't re-hash it. I also feel that there is insurance and health problems with street vendors. I also bleieve that they could be overcome. We actually don't have Red Lobster or Taco Bell in Vancouver and the McD stores are all suffering. However other large slop operations do well here. I don't think it's possible to change the world. The people that eat at these places will never be part of our world. That battle is not worth fighting. Since I am a Feenie Basher ( I admit it) and openly love West you seem to think of me as a Celebrity Chef groupie. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of my posts on Chowhound and E Gullet are about smaller more ethnic restaurants Like Kim Phuung, Pho Thy, Bin 941, The Harvest Vine etc. I actually deplore Celebrity Chefs and all they stand for. Beleive me David Hawksworth (Chef at West) is as far from a Celeb Chef as you will find. I just would rather see small restaurants not have to compete with food carts. This would seem to insure the opportunity to continue to eat in smaller places with diverse menus. Finally I don't mind food carts in Mazatlan or Hong Kong or New York, I just don't want them in Vancouver. Fri Apr 11 14:57:09 -0700 2003 580134 0 coop 6 580143 Coop: Shhhhhhhh! Don't mention that other discussion forum by name on this site; apparently Chowhound doesn't like to acknowledge its existence. Yes, I've seen you in action over there on the other site, with your comments about Toronto being full of Harvey's and Swiss Chalet...and you're more than half right. ;-) You mention health problems with street vendors. I've eaten lots of street food all around the world, and have never had food poisoning. But then, I have an iron gut! (Chinese take-out food, on the other hand.... Note to self: don't ever get shrimp fried rice again from a shady-looking "Chinese-Canadian cuisine" joint in Toronto...) You like street food, as long as it's not in Vancouver? Is this a N.I.M.B.Y. thing? Rock on, Coop! Fri Apr 11 15:29:41 -0700 2003 580141 0 Anne Bradford 7 580146 >>Don't mention that other discussion forum by name on this site; apparently Chowhound doesn't like to acknowledge its existence.<< Actually, there are hundreds of mentions plainly in view. But we've also received (and deleted) innumerable spam promotional messages, and it's our policy that this site can't be used by those with promotional agendas of any sort. If a real Chowhound user refers, in passing, to another web site within an informative message, and that posting doesn't - as they sometimes do - elicit hails of promotional follow up or obnoxious "they suck, chowhound rules/chowhound sucks, they rule" flame wars, there's no problem. But if someone we've never seen before shows up to send people to another site - any other site - we consider it spam. And we've seen a LOT of such spam, plus other aggressive guerilla marketing (spam to users' mailboxes, etc) It's our central mission to ensure Chowhound's used solely as a non-commercial, non-agenda, non-promotional forum for chow tips, period, and deflect those trying to make any other use of our microphone. This gives Chowhound its unique non-commercial, non-hypey flavor. Fri Apr 11 20:56:01 -0700 2003 580143 2 The Chowhound Team 8 580162 Agreed, like the street food scene but it's just not Vancouver. Although if you were anywhere downtown when the firework season starts, you'll see plenty of places selling versions of their sit-down menu on the sidewalk. That, I feel is a lot more Vancouver than hotdog stands or roasted chestnut stands (seems to be seeing a lot of those lately). Mon Apr 14 07:16:31 -0700 2003 580146 0 Luke 9 580180 Although the suggestion of an outdoor "food court" is an interesting one I can't see the practicality or longevity of it. In order to thrive it would have to be fairly centrally located to take advantage of the office crowd or whatever group was targeted. This would mean some undeveloped parking lot that could hold that many potential stands.How long would that last before construction started on the latest high rise? Remember we are talking about a quick meal as an alternative to an indoor experience not the "Bite of Vancouver" in perpetuity. (That can be another thread.) Without rehashing already stated arguments we are talking about tax and permit paying citizens. We live in a free enterprise system that should allow for all manner of legal alternatives. I make no difference between a shop owner and a legal street stand. The cart owner pays a large price for standing in all kinds of weather with no ability to sell liquor or offer the commforts of even the most basic fast food operation. It is often human nature to mantain the status quo if not challenged by exterior influences. There are many ways a storefront operation can compete against a stand. The bottom line is quality and service. We as foodies have benefited enormously in this city from the competitive nature of our restaurants. Who knows; todays great little cart owner is tomorrow's groovie little restaurant owner. Now if I can only get the franchise for that stand in Florence that only sells tripe paninis! Mon Apr 14 20:05:10 -0700 2003 580162 0 eatrustic 10 580183 Eatrustic: If I had to have a street vendor in front of my business I hope it would be one selling Tripe Panini'. As a recent covert to the "tripe side" I say good luck. Tue Apr 15 11:45:23 -0700 2003 580180 0 Coop 8 580170 What if there was an area set aside in the city for street vendors. Some where close to the core but still not right on the busiest street. Perhaps this area would become a destination on it's own. Sorry I mentioned the other food site. I agree with the moderators on this boards comments. It is the World Wide Web though, a place that is hard to control. BTW. I enjoy this board a little more because of the way it flows. It seems to be more a board for people who just like to eat. At the E... board it seems to be mostly food professionals and wannabe reviewers (like myself). This is the best debate about food in Vancouver I have seen on this board in months. I hope everyones participation continues. Mon Apr 14 11:59:15 -0700 2003 580146 0 Coop 9 580175 I don't bother with that other board. They're full of loooong, stoooopid and pompous discussions that I have no time for. What I love about Chowhound is its equal emphasis on hidden, humble gems as well as the big-name restaurants in the various towns. It's about eating and sharing, not about oneupmanship. As for this street-food debate, I say let the street food proliferate in all possible varieties, but Coop had a great idea about gathering all the food vendors in one area, maybe in the center of town. That would make a cool and lively attraction for both locals and tourists! Mon Apr 14 13:11:16 -0700 2003 580170 0 DMG 9 580176 Now, there's a brilliant idea! Having the street vendors in one area would make the vendors creative and increase choices for the consumer, and it would promote "outdoor culture" (for a lack of a better term). Not to mention, it would alleviate some of the potential problems for restaurants that Coop mentioned earlier. Mon Apr 14 13:50:34 -0700 2003 580170 0 Anne Bradford 9 580177 How about a street food zone on the seawall since it seems that restaurants are not welcome there. Even if restaurants do start to pop up, they will know that they have to compete with the street food in advance, so Coop's concerns should be allayed. I for one would enjoy more food and drink options while I walk along the seawall. Mon Apr 14 14:58:07 -0700 2003 580170 0 Annie, Vancouver 6 580916 Hello Everyone! I'm new to this site...i found it as i am doing some research--i would love feedback, advice so let me explain. i am a 28yrs old girl who has travelled the world, loves to eat and has a french chef boyfriend. After a year in France we have come back to Canada, to Quebec, i am french canadian. Here in the east there is a 'chip wagon' culture, and we as a young couple we wanted to start our own business without too much overhead and start up cost...hence a chip wagon (it's still a pretty expensive venture but worth it). we are in cottage country in a very agricultural area on the highway, we feed truckers, farmers and a couple of tourists. we peel 50lbs bags by hand, cut and prepare our fries fresh everyday...i'm enjoying the learning experience of running my own business, but this is not where i want to live. after living in the French Alps my dream would be to live out west near the Rockies we are very active couple--i would love to bring my business out west. Serving good food to people out of my truck which is 'health inspection' wise spotless- full staneless steel interior, a strick daily cleaning regime, a very good knowledge and experience in the food industry---if i were to adapt my menu to vancouver palates would i have a chance? are there trucks out west or just hot dog "carts". We have the equipment to make crepes (thin french pancakes) bagels with smoked salmon and capers, poutine (fries with cheese curds and gravy), we have a steamer so steamed veggies...i'm just putting a face to street vendors, i'm full of good recepies and good ideas, and i just want to earn my living honestly and self sufficiently--any comments welcomed thanks all tali Mon Jul 21 22:23:06 -0700 2003 580141 0 Natalie Bourdeau 1 580125 It seems to me that you have lots of ideas for an article from the replies. There is a general consensus with your statement that Vancouver has a dearth of street food and some theories about why that is so. Why not do some interviews - ask city hall, ask some street vendors, ask the restaurant associaton. Coops commments make sense as do the others. What about on the beach. We have just had some controversy about "commercial" food establishments on the seawall, how do sidewalk vendors fit in. There is so little interesting food journalism in Vancouver, it is pathetic - sort of like the street food scene. I would love to read an article that someone actually researched and thought about rather than spouting the latest received view on the Vancouver food world. Wed Apr 09 15:44:14 -0700 2003 580107 0 Annie, Vancouver 2 580126 Those are all very sound ideas, both pro and con, the article is for the Georgia Straight and due to the tiny amount of space alloted can't delve too deeply into the issues surrounding street food, but I will try to touch as much as I can upon the complexities. Thanks to everyone for their ideas and posts. Extremely helpful. Also if anyone wants to be quoted or contribute a comment, please email me at woodend@telus.net Wed Apr 09 15:53:14 -0700 2003 580125 0 Dorothy Woodend 3 580127 Good luck Dorothy. I'll look for the article. Do you know what week it is scheduled to appear? Wed Apr 09 16:20:16 -0700 2003 580126 0 Annie, Vancouver 1 3912029 While I fully acknowledge that I'm 5 years late in replying to this thread (smirk), the whole concept of Street Food has taken on a new life in Vancouver. Now that I come to think of it, maybe it's a good thing I'm a little late on this one! Try The Flying Tiger on west 4th avenue in Kitsilano - Asian Street Food (VERY well done, I might add) is the concept. Truly cool. Tue Jul 29 12:52:20 -0700 2008 580107 214244 darren 604 2 3913180 Let's not forget the Richmond Night Market for Asian street food. Also, The food courts at the Asian Malls (Crystal Mall, Richmond Public Market, Aberdeen, Yaohan, etc.) Tue Jul 29 18:33:06 -0700 2008 3912029 145820 fmed 3 3986081 Try JapaDog stalls- it is unique and tasty street food Mon Aug 25 14:53:30 -0700 2008 3913180 221452 CluelessChef99